6 ms·

Can they sue, and if they do are they likely to win? My laymans gut feeling is they will lose because the constitution says nothing about the government being r

Can they sue, and if they do are they likely to win? My laymans gut feeling is they will lose because the constitution says nothing about the government being required to provide press access to facilities. However, if they allow access to one organization but not another seems there could be an argument that they're policing speech? Would be great to hear a more informed take.

fnordpiglet 1y ago
Smarter, they just dont cover the propaganda from inside, they dig the truth from those inside. The media has been too lazy for too long printing press release from the government. This government has nothing to say but propaganda - I don’t even bother reading the government quotes any more. They are content free and self aggrandizing at a level of absurdity that would put North Korea to shame. There have been governments hostile to journalists in the past, and those are the governments with the most to lose when journalists dig into their work. I look forward to the investigative journalism of the next three years.
- generic92034 1y ago
  > I look forward to the investigative journalism of the next three years. So, who is owning the media publishing the investigative journalism? Will they risk shaking the grass, considering the powers that be?
  - djkoolaide 1y ago
    404 Media is a great place to start.
    - yupyupyups 1y ago
      paywalled
      - robin_reala 1y ago
        What’s wrong with that?
        tyleo 1y ago
        If anything it may be an improvement over ad driven models.
        fn-mote 1y ago
        The qualify of reporting …
      - CubsFan1060 1y ago
        Do you expect people to do investigative journalism for free?
      - yupyupyups 1y ago
        Correction: Only some articles are. I thought everything was. If that was the case then you wouldn't really know what you're subscribing to. That was my initial objection, but the site seems to follow the lwn.net model. Mb.
    - aeon_ai 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - wredcoll 1y ago
        Any evidence of that?
      - snowwrestler 1y ago
        I think their bias shows primarily in which stories and topics they choose to cover. But it seems like they do a good job finding and reporting facts in the stories they do choose to cover. It’s a good example of why people should seek out a broad mix of media sources. Pretty much every outlet is going to have a bias embodied in what they choose to cover.
        aeon_ai 1y ago
        I hesitate, because I don't disagree - They do find and report some very interesting information. They're not just "repeating" stuff others have found. However, their interpretation of facts is the bias I'm referring to, and in almost all cases I've seen, their reporting has a very visible prejudice.
        phatskat 1y ago
        > and in almost all cases I've seen, their reporting has a very visible prejudice. I would genuinely like to see some examples if you have any - I’m not necessarily taking a side either way, more curious.
- Hnrobert42 1y ago
  If they are unable to investigate by developing sources on the inside, how are they gonna do anything other than publish press releases?
  - fkyoureadthedoc 1y ago
    Why would they be unable to develop sources on the inside? I don't think the pentagon press briefing area is where they would develop their sources regardless of being allowed in or not.
  - fnordpiglet 1y ago
    The inside of the pentagon is probably the worst place to ascertain honest and damaging information about the government. The most famous of such sources, deep throat, refused to talk about information in the office or on the phone. Instead he would meet in an underground car garage. This seems imminently sensible if you are disclosing damaging information about powerful and dangerous people doing illegal or immoral things. You’re not going to chat about it in the hallways at the pentagon. In fact by creating an atmosphere of fear and paranoia through political persecution of the federal workforce they’re going to invite this sort of behavior. People are going to feel afraid and hide their beliefs but will need an outlet. The only reason to persecute people for their political beliefs and lock down transparency is to hide things that people unaligned to your ideology might disclose. They will still be there no matter what you do, they will just go underground in their behavior and take elaborate routes to tell what’s going on - and there will a lot to tell because it’s being hidden for a reason. The more they dismantle oversight the more violation of ethics and legal requirements will happen - there’s no reason to dismantle the oversight functions unless you have things to hide. The more outrageous it comes, the more flagrant, the more those with discontent and grievance will seek out the press. (Surely there are some people in the government unhappy with how they or their (former) coworkers have been treated by this administration). This is going to be the most spectacular case over over reach and hubris in our history and the blowout will be extraordinary as it unfolds and collapses around them, and I hope this will revitalize the independent press and investigative journalism - which frankly is not doing poorly already despite perception. There’s a lot of excellent outlets out there. And now increasingly major outlets are becoming independent of government influence once again.
- 93po 1y ago
  government and media are controlled by same class of people: billionaires.
altacc 1y ago
It seems less about access and more about agreeing to the principle that publishing anything unapproved, or even asking anyone for more information than is not approved, is a national security risk and press privileges will be revoked if they do that. It's an attempt by the government to control what the press publishes through coercion, aka chilling.
terminalshort 1y ago
Either everyone as the right or no one does. If they can't exclude media orgs, then I get to go too.
bko 1y ago
> However, if they allow access to one organization but not another seems there could be an argument that they're policing speech? I think they would be allowing access to organizations that accept the procedures. Maybe you don't agree with the procedures, but it's no different than "I agree to the terms" required on pretty much every product you use.
- ricardobeat 1y ago
  If the terms on the product say your access might be revoked because you asked questions about their parent company, that’s illegal and should be contested. That said, this is entirely different – citizens have the right to know what is happening within all branches of the government, and not only via official press releases. Some level of transparency is a critical requirement for a functioning democracy (I understand the US might be a little past that point).
  - bko 1y ago
    Where does it say that "your access might be revoked because you asked questions"? They're journalists, that's what they do. There's nowhere that says that a government has to give access to the grounds of a building. Did you feel as strongly when Biden gave no press conferences between November 2023 to July 2024? It's just silly to put your flag into the ground on this particular issue.
    - alphabettsy 1y ago
      I think your argument is exceptionally silly as is the comparison to Biden not holding press conferences. The press had been access prior and the difference now is that they will lose access unless they agree to report what they’re told.
- xethos 1y ago
  > it's no different than "I agree to the terms" required on pretty much every product you use. And I'd have hoped that by now, consumers have learned that being in the ToS does not make something legal, let alone enforcable
mpalmer 1y ago
> the constitution says nothing about the government being required to provide press access to facilities As with anything regarding the first amendment it's very fuzzy, which the administration is taking advantage of here. They got in hot water earlier this year because they explicitly denied the AP access to some White House event because of AP's editorial refusal to refer to the Gulf of Mexico as the Gulf of America. That sort of singling out is definitely prohibited when it comes to restricting press access. Now they're learning a bit, and they're treating everyone the same (everyone has to sign the same thing). They're heating the frog more slowly.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
  > they're treating everyone the same (everyone has to sign the same thing) They're treating people who didn't sign the thing differently from people who did sign the thing. The thing doesn't have any legal basis; it was implemented only to create a dichotomy for discrimination.
  - mpalmer 1y ago
    > They're treating people who didn't sign the thing differently from people who did sign the thing. That's not a thing. They can't require different things of different press organizations (arbitrary/capricious), or exclude orgs because of their speech (excluding the AP FOR calling it the Gulf of Mexico) Courts may find that this specific requirement of signing the policy is lawful, or no. But if everyone has to sign it, it's not arbitrary.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
      > But if everyone has to sign it, it's not arbitrary. I think you're misunderstanding my point. You are saying the request does not have arbitrary targets but I am saying the request itself is arbitrary. By this meaning, it would not be an arbitrary request to ask all of the reporters for their eye color but it would be arbitrary to deny access to green-eyed people. > exclude orgs because of their speech This is what they're planning to do to the organizations which choose not to sign it. Signing it (or not) is an act of expression. Choosing not to sign it would not be violating any law; there is no reason for them to be excluded. Perhaps there's a legal definition of "arbitrary" that I'm naive to but, by a plain English understanding, it's obviously arbitrary to deny access to the groups that didn't sign it based on their decision not to sign it, unless the requirement itself is not arbitrary.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

fnordpiglet 1y ago

Smarter, they just dont cover the propaganda from inside, they dig the truth from those inside. The media has been too lazy for too long printing press release from the government. This government has nothing to say but propaganda - I don’t even bother reading the government quotes any more. They are content free and self aggrandizing at a level of absurdity that would put North Korea to shame. There have been governments hostile to journalists in the past, and those are the governments with the most to lose when journalists dig into their work. I look forward to the investigative journalism of the next three years.

generic92034 1y ago
> I look forward to the investigative journalism of the next three years. So, who is owning the media publishing the investigative journalism? Will they risk shaking the grass, considering the powers that be?
- djkoolaide 1y ago
  404 Media is a great place to start.
  - yupyupyups 1y ago
    paywalled
    - robin_reala 1y ago
      What’s wrong with that?
      - tyleo 1y ago
        If anything it may be an improvement over ad driven models.
      - fn-mote 1y ago
        The qualify of reporting …
    - CubsFan1060 1y ago
      Do you expect people to do investigative journalism for free?
    - yupyupyups 1y ago
      Correction: Only some articles are. I thought everything was. If that was the case then you wouldn't really know what you're subscribing to. That was my initial objection, but the site seems to follow the lwn.net model. Mb.
  - aeon_ai 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - wredcoll 1y ago
      Any evidence of that?
    - snowwrestler 1y ago
      I think their bias shows primarily in which stories and topics they choose to cover. But it seems like they do a good job finding and reporting facts in the stories they do choose to cover. It’s a good example of why people should seek out a broad mix of media sources. Pretty much every outlet is going to have a bias embodied in what they choose to cover.
      - aeon_ai 1y ago
        I hesitate, because I don't disagree - They do find and report some very interesting information. They're not just "repeating" stuff others have found. However, their interpretation of facts is the bias I'm referring to, and in almost all cases I've seen, their reporting has a very visible prejudice.
        phatskat 1y ago
        > and in almost all cases I've seen, their reporting has a very visible prejudice. I would genuinely like to see some examples if you have any - I’m not necessarily taking a side either way, more curious.
Hnrobert42 1y ago
If they are unable to investigate by developing sources on the inside, how are they gonna do anything other than publish press releases?
- fkyoureadthedoc 1y ago
  Why would they be unable to develop sources on the inside? I don't think the pentagon press briefing area is where they would develop their sources regardless of being allowed in or not.
- fnordpiglet 1y ago
  The inside of the pentagon is probably the worst place to ascertain honest and damaging information about the government. The most famous of such sources, deep throat, refused to talk about information in the office or on the phone. Instead he would meet in an underground car garage. This seems imminently sensible if you are disclosing damaging information about powerful and dangerous people doing illegal or immoral things. You’re not going to chat about it in the hallways at the pentagon. In fact by creating an atmosphere of fear and paranoia through political persecution of the federal workforce they’re going to invite this sort of behavior. People are going to feel afraid and hide their beliefs but will need an outlet. The only reason to persecute people for their political beliefs and lock down transparency is to hide things that people unaligned to your ideology might disclose. They will still be there no matter what you do, they will just go underground in their behavior and take elaborate routes to tell what’s going on - and there will a lot to tell because it’s being hidden for a reason. The more they dismantle oversight the more violation of ethics and legal requirements will happen - there’s no reason to dismantle the oversight functions unless you have things to hide. The more outrageous it comes, the more flagrant, the more those with discontent and grievance will seek out the press. (Surely there are some people in the government unhappy with how they or their (former) coworkers have been treated by this administration). This is going to be the most spectacular case over over reach and hubris in our history and the blowout will be extraordinary as it unfolds and collapses around them, and I hope this will revitalize the independent press and investigative journalism - which frankly is not doing poorly already despite perception. There’s a lot of excellent outlets out there. And now increasingly major outlets are becoming independent of government influence once again.
93po 1y ago
government and media are controlled by same class of people: billionaires.

altacc 1y ago

It seems less about access and more about agreeing to the principle that publishing anything unapproved, or even asking anyone for more information than is not approved, is a national security risk and press privileges will be revoked if they do that. It's an attempt by the government to control what the press publishes through coercion, aka chilling.

terminalshort 1y ago

Either everyone as the right or no one does. If they can't exclude media orgs, then I get to go too.

bko 1y ago

> However, if they allow access to one organization but not another seems there could be an argument that they're policing speech? I think they would be allowing access to organizations that accept the procedures. Maybe you don't agree with the procedures, but it's no different than "I agree to the terms" required on pretty much every product you use.

ricardobeat 1y ago
If the terms on the product say your access might be revoked because you asked questions about their parent company, that’s illegal and should be contested. That said, this is entirely different – citizens have the right to know what is happening within all branches of the government, and not only via official press releases. Some level of transparency is a critical requirement for a functioning democracy (I understand the US might be a little past that point).
- bko 1y ago
  Where does it say that "your access might be revoked because you asked questions"? They're journalists, that's what they do. There's nowhere that says that a government has to give access to the grounds of a building. Did you feel as strongly when Biden gave no press conferences between November 2023 to July 2024? It's just silly to put your flag into the ground on this particular issue.
  - alphabettsy 1y ago
    I think your argument is exceptionally silly as is the comparison to Biden not holding press conferences. The press had been access prior and the difference now is that they will lose access unless they agree to report what they’re told.
xethos 1y ago
> it's no different than "I agree to the terms" required on pretty much every product you use. And I'd have hoped that by now, consumers have learned that being in the ToS does not make something legal, let alone enforcable

mpalmer 1y ago

> the constitution says nothing about the government being required to provide press access to facilities As with anything regarding the first amendment it's very fuzzy, which the administration is taking advantage of here. They got in hot water earlier this year because they explicitly denied the AP access to some White House event because of AP's editorial refusal to refer to the Gulf of Mexico as the Gulf of America. That sort of singling out is definitely prohibited when it comes to restricting press access. Now they're learning a bit, and they're treating everyone the same (everyone has to sign the same thing). They're heating the frog more slowly.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
> they're treating everyone the same (everyone has to sign the same thing) They're treating people who didn't sign the thing differently from people who did sign the thing. The thing doesn't have any legal basis; it was implemented only to create a dichotomy for discrimination.
- mpalmer 1y ago
  > They're treating people who didn't sign the thing differently from people who did sign the thing. That's not a thing. They can't require different things of different press organizations (arbitrary/capricious), or exclude orgs because of their speech (excluding the AP FOR calling it the Gulf of Mexico) Courts may find that this specific requirement of signing the policy is lawful, or no. But if everyone has to sign it, it's not arbitrary.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
    > But if everyone has to sign it, it's not arbitrary. I think you're misunderstanding my point. You are saying the request does not have arbitrary targets but I am saying the request itself is arbitrary. By this meaning, it would not be an arbitrary request to ask all of the reporters for their eye color but it would be arbitrary to deny access to green-eyed people. > exclude orgs because of their speech This is what they're planning to do to the organizations which choose not to sign it. Signing it (or not) is an act of expression. Choosing not to sign it would not be violating any law; there is no reason for them to be excluded. Perhaps there's a legal definition of "arbitrary" that I'm naive to but, by a plain English understanding, it's obviously arbitrary to deny access to the groups that didn't sign it based on their decision not to sign it, unless the requirement itself is not arbitrary.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]