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Would you buy a hammer that can't ever hurt your thumb? What implications would that have? Would that be a good hammer? Bad opinion time that I hope will maybe

by mouse_ 1y ago

Would you buy a hammer that can't ever hurt your thumb? What implications would that have? Would that be a good hammer? Bad opinion time that I hope will maybe at least be thought provoking: I would hope a malicious app I willingly installed will be able to behave maliciously. Our security bureaucracy is going to grow exponentially and people are still going to be stealing people's shit, because people need to be able to access their shit and people are dumb.

leakycap 1y ago
> requires no [Android] permissions I think this is the part people are upset about
akerl_ 1y ago
> Would you buy a hammer that can't ever hurt your thumb? Yes.
- elmerfud 1y ago
  I believe those hammers are made by Nerf. Now go build a house with one.
  - rootusrootus 1y ago
    There was a time when we would have said something similar for table saws that cannot cut off your finger. Might be a little harder to pull off the trick with a hammer, but it just seems like another engineering problem. And it would make for a very expensive hammer.
    - elmerfud 1y ago
      It probably wouldn't be classified as a hammer anymore. You're comparing apples and oranges. Now when you show me the manual hand saw that can avoid cutting off your fingers you'll have an accurate comparison. Because we're not comparing air nailers or electric nail guns or screw guns. It was about a hammer. Your comparison is so ridiculous because the table saw did not obsolete any other kind of saw. It was only a new type of saw that allowed for some types of sawing to be done much easier.
      - akerl_ 1y ago
        I'll bite, I guess. The saw stop wasn't a replacement for manual saws. Table saws existed (and still exist!) and have a nasty habit of removing people's fingers. The saw stop was designed as a better table saw. The point being that it's wild to start with the idea that hammers must be a danger to thumbs, and then double down by trying to claim that any hammer that wasn't a danger to thumbs wouldn't be called a hammer. Getting a table saw with a saw stop on it doesn't make it not a table saw.
        elmerfud 1y ago
        But table saws are a replacement for manual saws. Table saws weren't invented first. Table saws fulfilled a niche use case for sawing. So by that saw stop is a replacement for a manual saw. If you've ever used a hammer, a tool that has been around for tens of thousands of years, you will know by it's very nature of its operation it is a danger to thumbs. Trying to think that you can do "on an iPhone" and start with the assumption that a hammer fulfilling the functions and utility that it has and has had for 10,000 years cannot be a danger to thumbs is an erroneous thought and it shows the height of hubris. Can you have tools that fulfill some of the functions of the hammer that are not dangerous to thumbs? Absolutely and we have those already. Any of the automatic nailers have built-in safety features to prevent accidents. Sometimes people disable those safety features because they do cause problems in legitimate use cases but they are built with those safety features. This would be analogous to saw stop which works in table saws which is a very limited saw. Just like a table saw cannot fulfill all of the functions of a hand saw. A device that pounds nails or other things that has features to prevent it from accidentally hitting thumbs would not be able to fulfill all of the functions of the hammer. From what we've seen with saws, this is your example not mine, all of the electric saws that have ever been built have never been able to eliminate the usefulness or utility of the simple handsaw which is dangerous to use. So where is the hubris to say that because you can invent a safer nailing device, which they have, it will somehow supplant and replace the hammer? The evidence says that's not the case.
        akerl_ 1y ago
        I think we've almost certainly bottomed this out, but I feel obligated to point out that table saws can do a bunch of things that are borderline impossible with a hand saw. Table saws are not a replacement for hand saws. The fact that hand saws and table saws both have blades with teeth is about where the similarities end.
  - TZubiri 1y ago
    Would you buy an electric saw that cannot damage your fingers? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQu3ccfl7Ow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQu3ccfl7Ow Or you would yell at a cloud?
    - elmerfud 1y ago
      Everybody knows about saw stop. But in what way does a table saw compare with a hammer? If you were comparing it to an air nailer, or an electric nail gun, or an electric screw gun, which all can have safety features that require certain things to be met before it will fire then you have a comparison. If you want to compare the hammer to something that saws you would compare it to a handsaw. Show me the hand saw that cannot damage your fingers. You must think you're very smart but I don't think you've done any manual labor in your life. Because the table saw never obsoleted any other type of existing saw. It was simply a new tool that enhanced the ability to do certain types of sawing. The more you limit a function of something the easier it is to put guardrails around it. That was the original poster's point. You can limit Android to the point that it is nearly useless or useless only for the most basic of tasks but then you remove the power of it but you do not remove the need for all of the other tasks. Table saws with saw stop still necessitate hand saws in some circumstances. Power nailers that have safety features that prevent their discharge and unsafe ways do not obsolete hammers.
      - TZubiri 1y ago
        https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Metaphorgotten https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Metaphorgotten
TZubiri 1y ago
While I appreciate the sentiment of fighting against oversecure features. This is a great security feature. The Windows OS model started development in the 90s, before the internet or even malware was popular. Android started development around 2010 and was able to provide a security design that contemplated risks of malware and internet. In Windows installing malware compromises other applications, while in Android, your other apps are safe. In this news, this security mechanism fails. To denounce that the mechanism is completely useless is quite stupid, you just outed yourself as someone who doesn't have any security responsibilities and shouldn't have.
shkkmo 1y ago
> Would that be a good hammer? They're called rubber mallets and they are useful in a number of situations where you want to > I would hope a malicious app I willingly installed will be able to behave maliciously. You should be able to install an app that has continuous access to your screen but that doesn't mean that continuous access to your screen is something you should have to grant to every piece of software that runs on your computer.
- gdulli 1y ago
  You can hurt your thumb with a rubber mallet. Maybe the better metaphor would be kids' safety scissors which I guess represents the iPhone, but I'd still rather go with the Android (regular scissors) because I'm an adult and I'll take responsibility for the risks of using the more powerful tool.
  - akerl_ 1y ago
    Why are you speaking like having a secure device and a powerful device are exclusive options?
    - gdulli 1y ago
      Not being able to run arbitrary code that Apple hasn't given me permission to run doesn't meet my standard of powerful. I won't trade my freedom for a little extra security.
  - timothyduong 1y ago
    I think one can still build a product that has a level of guard rails without impacting usability. I also think iOS is more of an opinionated 'set of shears'. E.g. 'Right Hand only Scissors made from proprietary parts, made to only cut objects that 80% of scissor users need to cut' if we were to go down the road of analogies. Funnily enough Google Android is removing the ability for unsigned non-adb APKs. I would suggest your 'regular' scissors will be slightly bluntened in the upcoming Android 16 OS release.

by mouse_ 1y ago

leakycap 1y ago

> requires no [Android] permissions I think this is the part people are upset about

akerl_ 1y ago

> Would you buy a hammer that can't ever hurt your thumb? Yes.

elmerfud 1y ago
I believe those hammers are made by Nerf. Now go build a house with one.
- rootusrootus 1y ago
  There was a time when we would have said something similar for table saws that cannot cut off your finger. Might be a little harder to pull off the trick with a hammer, but it just seems like another engineering problem. And it would make for a very expensive hammer.
  - elmerfud 1y ago
    It probably wouldn't be classified as a hammer anymore. You're comparing apples and oranges. Now when you show me the manual hand saw that can avoid cutting off your fingers you'll have an accurate comparison. Because we're not comparing air nailers or electric nail guns or screw guns. It was about a hammer. Your comparison is so ridiculous because the table saw did not obsolete any other kind of saw. It was only a new type of saw that allowed for some types of sawing to be done much easier.
    - akerl_ 1y ago
      I'll bite, I guess. The saw stop wasn't a replacement for manual saws. Table saws existed (and still exist!) and have a nasty habit of removing people's fingers. The saw stop was designed as a better table saw. The point being that it's wild to start with the idea that hammers must be a danger to thumbs, and then double down by trying to claim that any hammer that wasn't a danger to thumbs wouldn't be called a hammer. Getting a table saw with a saw stop on it doesn't make it not a table saw.
      - elmerfud 1y ago
        But table saws are a replacement for manual saws. Table saws weren't invented first. Table saws fulfilled a niche use case for sawing. So by that saw stop is a replacement for a manual saw. If you've ever used a hammer, a tool that has been around for tens of thousands of years, you will know by it's very nature of its operation it is a danger to thumbs. Trying to think that you can do "on an iPhone" and start with the assumption that a hammer fulfilling the functions and utility that it has and has had for 10,000 years cannot be a danger to thumbs is an erroneous thought and it shows the height of hubris. Can you have tools that fulfill some of the functions of the hammer that are not dangerous to thumbs? Absolutely and we have those already. Any of the automatic nailers have built-in safety features to prevent accidents. Sometimes people disable those safety features because they do cause problems in legitimate use cases but they are built with those safety features. This would be analogous to saw stop which works in table saws which is a very limited saw. Just like a table saw cannot fulfill all of the functions of a hand saw. A device that pounds nails or other things that has features to prevent it from accidentally hitting thumbs would not be able to fulfill all of the functions of the hammer. From what we've seen with saws, this is your example not mine, all of the electric saws that have ever been built have never been able to eliminate the usefulness or utility of the simple handsaw which is dangerous to use. So where is the hubris to say that because you can invent a safer nailing device, which they have, it will somehow supplant and replace the hammer? The evidence says that's not the case.
        akerl_ 1y ago
        I think we've almost certainly bottomed this out, but I feel obligated to point out that table saws can do a bunch of things that are borderline impossible with a hand saw. Table saws are not a replacement for hand saws. The fact that hand saws and table saws both have blades with teeth is about where the similarities end.
- TZubiri 1y ago
  Would you buy an electric saw that cannot damage your fingers? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQu3ccfl7Ow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQu3ccfl7Ow Or you would yell at a cloud?
  - elmerfud 1y ago
    Everybody knows about saw stop. But in what way does a table saw compare with a hammer? If you were comparing it to an air nailer, or an electric nail gun, or an electric screw gun, which all can have safety features that require certain things to be met before it will fire then you have a comparison. If you want to compare the hammer to something that saws you would compare it to a handsaw. Show me the hand saw that cannot damage your fingers. You must think you're very smart but I don't think you've done any manual labor in your life. Because the table saw never obsoleted any other type of existing saw. It was simply a new tool that enhanced the ability to do certain types of sawing. The more you limit a function of something the easier it is to put guardrails around it. That was the original poster's point. You can limit Android to the point that it is nearly useless or useless only for the most basic of tasks but then you remove the power of it but you do not remove the need for all of the other tasks. Table saws with saw stop still necessitate hand saws in some circumstances. Power nailers that have safety features that prevent their discharge and unsafe ways do not obsolete hammers.
    - TZubiri 1y ago
      https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Metaphorgotten https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Metaphorgotten

TZubiri 1y ago

While I appreciate the sentiment of fighting against oversecure features. This is a great security feature. The Windows OS model started development in the 90s, before the internet or even malware was popular. Android started development around 2010 and was able to provide a security design that contemplated risks of malware and internet. In Windows installing malware compromises other applications, while in Android, your other apps are safe. In this news, this security mechanism fails. To denounce that the mechanism is completely useless is quite stupid, you just outed yourself as someone who doesn't have any security responsibilities and shouldn't have.

shkkmo 1y ago

> Would that be a good hammer? They're called rubber mallets and they are useful in a number of situations where you want to > I would hope a malicious app I willingly installed will be able to behave maliciously. You should be able to install an app that has continuous access to your screen but that doesn't mean that continuous access to your screen is something you should have to grant to every piece of software that runs on your computer.

gdulli 1y ago
You can hurt your thumb with a rubber mallet. Maybe the better metaphor would be kids' safety scissors which I guess represents the iPhone, but I'd still rather go with the Android (regular scissors) because I'm an adult and I'll take responsibility for the risks of using the more powerful tool.
- akerl_ 1y ago
  Why are you speaking like having a secure device and a powerful device are exclusive options?
  - gdulli 1y ago
    Not being able to run arbitrary code that Apple hasn't given me permission to run doesn't meet my standard of powerful. I won't trade my freedom for a little extra security.
- timothyduong 1y ago
  I think one can still build a product that has a level of guard rails without impacting usability. I also think iOS is more of an opinionated 'set of shears'. E.g. 'Right Hand only Scissors made from proprietary parts, made to only cut objects that 80% of scissor users need to cut' if we were to go down the road of analogies. Funnily enough Google Android is removing the ability for unsigned non-adb APKs. I would suggest your 'regular' scissors will be slightly bluntened in the upcoming Android 16 OS release.