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https://drewdevault.com/2025/09/24/2025-09-24-Cloudflare-and-fascists.html https://drewdevault.com/2025/09/24/2025-09-24-Cloudflare-and...

maratc 1y ago
> US politics has been pretty fascist lately. It's gonna be a waste of time for anyone who doesn't already agree with this statement to continue past this first sentence.
- httpsoverdns 1y ago
  It's never a waste of time to consider an alternative viewpoint.
  - zahlman 1y ago
    It is when it's entirely redundant, i.e. when you've heard the same arguments countless times before and know that you're about to reject them again. You may notice that your sibling replies treat the "alternative viewpoint" in question as if it were objective fact, and show the same unwillingness. It's prudent to understand whose minds can actually be changed on issues like this.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
      > the same unwillingness The "unwillingness" in question is the decision not to read and engage with another's perspective. The replies calling this a fact are actually engaging with the points being made. Whether or not American politics is becoming more fascist isn't really a matter of debate unless one simply doesn't know what the word "fascist" is referring to. You seem, er, "unwilling" to engage with an objective definition of fascism. It's in another comment in this thread if you want to discuss it in good faith. What do you think? (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45575415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45575415) Personally, it seems kinda obvious that the phrase "Make America Great Again" was chosen specifically for how it evokes palingenetic ultranationalism. > It's prudent to understand whose minds can actually be changed on issues like this. It's prudent to say what you believe. Whether or not someone is willing to engage with your beliefs in good faith is on them.
  - maratc 1y ago
    That is a good advice. Do you follow it yourself? Did you, for instance, read Mein Kampf to “consider an alternative viewpoint”? Or is it only good when the “alternative viewpoint” is yours?
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
      > Did you, for instance, read Mein Kampf to “consider an alternative viewpoint”? This doesn't seem to be relevant. They didn't dismiss Mein Kampf as a waste of time.
- nerdponx 1y ago
  You might want to pick up a history book because it's kind of just a matter of fact at this point. The only remaining question is whether you think it's a good thing or not.
  - maratc 1y ago
    “My opinions are not opinions — these are facts, and those who disagree are either stupid, or evil, or both. In your case, I’m going to, in good faith, assume ignorance.” I actually read a lot of history books, but I’m not limiting myself to WW2 material. I can see how someone who only reads about that could assume that WW2 is the only thing that happened — but also the only thing that is happening, and the only thing that could ever happen. For these, it’s always 1939 somewhere, and the only question that remains is where.
    - nerdponx 1y ago
      You are taking issue with the claim that US politics are "fascist" right now. I am asserting that the similarities exist as a plain matter of fact. Fascism didn't exist at other times in history, so I don't see the point in bringing up other time periods, nor do I see how it refutes my assertion.
      - maratc 1y ago
        > You are taking issue with the claim that US politics are "fascist" right now. I never said I take issue with that claim, nor that I agree with it, nor that I disagree with it. I just pointed out that there are two groups of people: those who agree with it and those who don't; for the latter group, reading the article that starts by stating that claim is going to be a waste of their time, as the article is built upon that foundation. > I don't see the point in bringing up other time periods You must be then using history the way a drunkard uses a lamppost: for support rather than illumination.
        nerdponx 1y ago
        > You must be then using history the way a drunkard uses a lamppost: for support rather than illumination. Why would I be interested in other time periods when talking about the similarities between our time, and a phenomenon that did not exist in those other time periods? If I state that someone on the street looks like Bill Murray, would you pull up pictures of John Cleese on your phone to refute my claim?
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
  > fascist Fascism is a political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism. — Roger Griffin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism This is an undeniable fact about American politics. I was never happy with the 14-layer bean dip definitions floating around (they seem to also try to include the definition of "authoritarian") but this one is reasonably concise and accurate to the ideologies of historically fascist movements. The bar of "populist palingenetic ultranationalism" is fairly objective, and seems to make it clear that this is the ideology behind the "Make America Great Again" movement. By this definition, American politics has been fascist since a President was elected on a fascist-by-definition campaign.
xigoi 1y ago
> Fascists naturally do not want to be identified as such and will reject the label, but we shouldn’t take their word for it. A certain book by Franz Kafka comes to mind…

maratc 1y ago

> US politics has been pretty fascist lately. It's gonna be a waste of time for anyone who doesn't already agree with this statement to continue past this first sentence.

httpsoverdns 1y ago
It's never a waste of time to consider an alternative viewpoint.
- zahlman 1y ago
  It is when it's entirely redundant, i.e. when you've heard the same arguments countless times before and know that you're about to reject them again. You may notice that your sibling replies treat the "alternative viewpoint" in question as if it were objective fact, and show the same unwillingness. It's prudent to understand whose minds can actually be changed on issues like this.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
    > the same unwillingness The "unwillingness" in question is the decision not to read and engage with another's perspective. The replies calling this a fact are actually engaging with the points being made. Whether or not American politics is becoming more fascist isn't really a matter of debate unless one simply doesn't know what the word "fascist" is referring to. You seem, er, "unwilling" to engage with an objective definition of fascism. It's in another comment in this thread if you want to discuss it in good faith. What do you think? (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45575415 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45575415) Personally, it seems kinda obvious that the phrase "Make America Great Again" was chosen specifically for how it evokes palingenetic ultranationalism. > It's prudent to understand whose minds can actually be changed on issues like this. It's prudent to say what you believe. Whether or not someone is willing to engage with your beliefs in good faith is on them.
- maratc 1y ago
  That is a good advice. Do you follow it yourself? Did you, for instance, read Mein Kampf to “consider an alternative viewpoint”? Or is it only good when the “alternative viewpoint” is yours?
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
    > Did you, for instance, read Mein Kampf to “consider an alternative viewpoint”? This doesn't seem to be relevant. They didn't dismiss Mein Kampf as a waste of time.
nerdponx 1y ago
You might want to pick up a history book because it's kind of just a matter of fact at this point. The only remaining question is whether you think it's a good thing or not.
- maratc 1y ago
  “My opinions are not opinions — these are facts, and those who disagree are either stupid, or evil, or both. In your case, I’m going to, in good faith, assume ignorance.” I actually read a lot of history books, but I’m not limiting myself to WW2 material. I can see how someone who only reads about that could assume that WW2 is the only thing that happened — but also the only thing that is happening, and the only thing that could ever happen. For these, it’s always 1939 somewhere, and the only question that remains is where.
  - nerdponx 1y ago
    You are taking issue with the claim that US politics are "fascist" right now. I am asserting that the similarities exist as a plain matter of fact. Fascism didn't exist at other times in history, so I don't see the point in bringing up other time periods, nor do I see how it refutes my assertion.
    - maratc 1y ago
      > You are taking issue with the claim that US politics are "fascist" right now. I never said I take issue with that claim, nor that I agree with it, nor that I disagree with it. I just pointed out that there are two groups of people: those who agree with it and those who don't; for the latter group, reading the article that starts by stating that claim is going to be a waste of their time, as the article is built upon that foundation. > I don't see the point in bringing up other time periods You must be then using history the way a drunkard uses a lamppost: for support rather than illumination.
      - nerdponx 1y ago
        > You must be then using history the way a drunkard uses a lamppost: for support rather than illumination. Why would I be interested in other time periods when talking about the similarities between our time, and a phenomenon that did not exist in those other time periods? If I state that someone on the street looks like Bill Murray, would you pull up pictures of John Cleese on your phone to refute my claim?
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
> fascist Fascism is a political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism. — Roger Griffin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism This is an undeniable fact about American politics. I was never happy with the 14-layer bean dip definitions floating around (they seem to also try to include the definition of "authoritarian") but this one is reasonably concise and accurate to the ideologies of historically fascist movements. The bar of "populist palingenetic ultranationalism" is fairly objective, and seems to make it clear that this is the ideology behind the "Make America Great Again" movement. By this definition, American politics has been fascist since a President was elected on a fascist-by-definition campaign.

xigoi 1y ago

> Fascists naturally do not want to be identified as such and will reject the label, but we shouldn’t take their word for it. A certain book by Franz Kafka comes to mind…