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I always wondered how the large unified world of Roman Empire with running water and sewer fell apart (and backwards) into multitude of small feudal pieces wit

by trhway 1y ago

I always wondered how the large unified world of Roman Empire with running water and sewer fell apart (and backwards) into multitude of small feudal pieces with no technology to speak of for the 1000 years after Roman Empire. I think our modern civilization is probably at the beginning of similar process.

selimthegrim 1y ago
Why stop there why not Indus Valley Civilization
- trhway 1y ago
  our knowledge (at least my knowledge of it) is much much smaller that that of Roman Empire, and in particular i don't know whether the fall of that civilization demonstrated the effect of splitting into multitude technologically inferior pieces stagnating for such a long time after that.
markus_zhang 1y ago
I think we are fine in term of infra -- I don't work as a civil engineer, but considering companies in my city repair the roads every year /s they probably retain the knowledge.
- fakedang 1y ago
  Exactly. Building roads and aqueducts were empire-level knowledge skills in Ancient Rome, performed by the army legions. Thankfully they're highly localized skills today.
- galangalalgol 1y ago
  How easy is the machinery and tools needed to keep all the infrastructure running? Earth movers are pretty maintainable and barely depreciate. Survey tools though? They have gotten famcy right? Water management has gone quite high tech in some ways. I could see them falling apart kind of like when some hospitals had to revert to paper tape logs. It didn't scale anymore.
  - fn-mote 1y ago
    > Earth movers are pretty maintainable and barely depreciate Beware hardware DRM locking up the repairs. That would make everything more fragile.
- trhway 1y ago
  The infra today is internet and semiconductors which run it, as well as global shipping without each we end up without even necessities.
zigzag312 1y ago
Aren't you exaggerating it?
- trhway 1y ago
  I lived in USSR, and know first hand that it means to be separated from common technological space. USSR wasn't that small, especially if one adds Eastern Block, yet it was falling behind the world becoming fully incapable to produce their own comparable computers, cars, etc.. If world get to split into such islands, the speed of technological progress will fall dramatically while social progress may go fully backwards. If you look at some ideologies rising around the world - they are straight medieval, and in many cases only connectedness to outside world has been preventing them from taking over their "islands".
  - achierius 1y ago
    As in -- "no technology to speak of" is a gross misrepresentation of the reality of the middle ages. The fact of the matter is, they were strictly more technologically advanced than the classical Romans, with inventions like the heavy plow and three-field rotation improving agricultural productivity significantly beyond what Romans had achieved.
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      > The fact of the matter is, they were strictly more technologically advanced than the classical Romans No, they were more advanced in certain ways, but the original contention is correct that they were less advanced in others. Notably they were unable to build domes. They were also less productive, so less advanced in an overall sense.
      - zigzag312 1y ago
        What do you mean when you say they were unable to build domes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_medieval_Arabic_and_Western_European_domes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_medieval_Arabic_and...
hermitcrab 1y ago
As I understand it, the Roman Empire was fuelled by expansion (stealing other people stuff), enabled by their exceptional military machine. Once they could not profitably expand any further, they were in trouble.
- Jensson 1y ago
  It lasted for many centuries after they ran out of stuff to conquer, so no.
  - hermitcrab 1y ago
    The Roman Empire reached its maximum extent under Trajan around 117CE. The decline began around 180CE to 235CE, depending on where you draw the line. That isn't 'many centuries' in my book.
D-Coder 1y ago
_Washington Post_ just had an article about why (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/10/12/america-roman-empire-decline-fall/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/10/12/america-r...). "In 1984, a German historian compiled 210 explanations historians had suggested for Rome’s fall, from lead poisoning and barbarian invasions to Christianity, moral decline and gout. After studying dynamic civilizations such as Athens, Rome, Abbasid Baghdad, Song China, Renaissance Italy and the Dutch Republic, I can attest that there is no single explanation. Each golden age had its own character and its own downfall."
- trhway 1y ago
  And i have my own ideas why it fell :) My point though ins't about pure why. It is about why it went into such feudal fractal mode.
- stock_toaster 1y ago
  I always figured it was a combination of the volcanic winter of 536[1] and the Justinianic plague[2] (which happened right as the eastern roman empire was reconquering the western empire to reunify). [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536 and https://www.science.org/content/article/why-536-was-worst-year-be-alive https://www.science.org/content/article/why-536-was-worst-ye... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian

by trhway 1y ago

selimthegrim 1y ago

Why stop there why not Indus Valley Civilization

trhway 1y ago
our knowledge (at least my knowledge of it) is much much smaller that that of Roman Empire, and in particular i don't know whether the fall of that civilization demonstrated the effect of splitting into multitude technologically inferior pieces stagnating for such a long time after that.

markus_zhang 1y ago

I think we are fine in term of infra -- I don't work as a civil engineer, but considering companies in my city repair the roads every year /s they probably retain the knowledge.

fakedang 1y ago
Exactly. Building roads and aqueducts were empire-level knowledge skills in Ancient Rome, performed by the army legions. Thankfully they're highly localized skills today.
galangalalgol 1y ago
How easy is the machinery and tools needed to keep all the infrastructure running? Earth movers are pretty maintainable and barely depreciate. Survey tools though? They have gotten famcy right? Water management has gone quite high tech in some ways. I could see them falling apart kind of like when some hospitals had to revert to paper tape logs. It didn't scale anymore.
- fn-mote 1y ago
  > Earth movers are pretty maintainable and barely depreciate Beware hardware DRM locking up the repairs. That would make everything more fragile.
trhway 1y ago
The infra today is internet and semiconductors which run it, as well as global shipping without each we end up without even necessities.

zigzag312 1y ago

Aren't you exaggerating it?

trhway 1y ago
I lived in USSR, and know first hand that it means to be separated from common technological space. USSR wasn't that small, especially if one adds Eastern Block, yet it was falling behind the world becoming fully incapable to produce their own comparable computers, cars, etc.. If world get to split into such islands, the speed of technological progress will fall dramatically while social progress may go fully backwards. If you look at some ideologies rising around the world - they are straight medieval, and in many cases only connectedness to outside world has been preventing them from taking over their "islands".
- achierius 1y ago
  As in -- "no technology to speak of" is a gross misrepresentation of the reality of the middle ages. The fact of the matter is, they were strictly more technologically advanced than the classical Romans, with inventions like the heavy plow and three-field rotation improving agricultural productivity significantly beyond what Romans had achieved.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > The fact of the matter is, they were strictly more technologically advanced than the classical Romans No, they were more advanced in certain ways, but the original contention is correct that they were less advanced in others. Notably they were unable to build domes. They were also less productive, so less advanced in an overall sense.
    - zigzag312 1y ago
      What do you mean when you say they were unable to build domes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_medieval_Arabic_and_Western_European_domes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_medieval_Arabic_and...

hermitcrab 1y ago

As I understand it, the Roman Empire was fuelled by expansion (stealing other people stuff), enabled by their exceptional military machine. Once they could not profitably expand any further, they were in trouble.

Jensson 1y ago
It lasted for many centuries after they ran out of stuff to conquer, so no.
- hermitcrab 1y ago
  The Roman Empire reached its maximum extent under Trajan around 117CE. The decline began around 180CE to 235CE, depending on where you draw the line. That isn't 'many centuries' in my book.

D-Coder 1y ago

_Washington Post_ just had an article about why (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/10/12/america-roman-empire-decline-fall/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/10/12/america-r...). "In 1984, a German historian compiled 210 explanations historians had suggested for Rome’s fall, from lead poisoning and barbarian invasions to Christianity, moral decline and gout. After studying dynamic civilizations such as Athens, Rome, Abbasid Baghdad, Song China, Renaissance Italy and the Dutch Republic, I can attest that there is no single explanation. Each golden age had its own character and its own downfall."

trhway 1y ago
And i have my own ideas why it fell :) My point though ins't about pure why. It is about why it went into such feudal fractal mode.
stock_toaster 1y ago
I always figured it was a combination of the volcanic winter of 536[1] and the Justinianic plague[2] (which happened right as the eastern roman empire was reconquering the western empire to reunify). [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter_of_536 and https://www.science.org/content/article/why-536-was-worst-year-be-alive https://www.science.org/content/article/why-536-was-worst-ye... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian