5 ms·

German state replaces Microsoft Exchange and Outlook with open-source email

79 points by CrankyBear 1y ago

palata 1y ago
It has been tried over the years. The question really is how much the employees understand and care about digital sovereignty. If they keep complaining because they have to learn new tools, they will eventually go back to Microsoft...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  The employees don't have to care, they will use whatever they're directed to use. It is whether the German government cares about digital sovereignty.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- dude250711 1y ago
  I have read today that Linux users are like vegans of computing.
  - misswaterfairy 1y ago
    Vegetarians for those who use a combination of open source and closed source code and applications
    - jraph 1y ago
      More like flexitarians maybe.
      - palata 1y ago
        Flexitarians just use whatever works, but they are aware that some of the stuff they use is not proprietary :-).
  - estimator7292 1y ago
    Linux users in general are vegetarians. Arch users are the vegans of the Linux world. I use Arch, btw
    - jraph 1y ago
      > Arch users are the vegans of the Linux world. Why would Arch be in that position?
      - palata 1y ago
        I think the joke is about Arch users feeling the need to mention it ("I use Arch, btw"). Vegans have the same reputation, vegetarians don't.
        jraph 1y ago
        Ah! Got it, thanks.
    - codingbot3000 1y ago
      Have you heard about the Arch Vegan already? The memes kind of write themselves...
- shirro 1y ago
  I doubt the employees will make a difference. It is likely more about the lobbying power of Microsoft and them finding a person at the right level who is receptive to their appeals and has the power to revert the policy. There are a lot of tech people who appreciate open source software and understand the benefits of digital sovereignty but its rare for them to have the final say in most orgs. Just about every org in my country uses Microsoft's email including universities, government, schools, businesses. I am sure it has some features that make it a good choice but its is unusual for any product to have practically 100% market share and no competition regardless of technical or usability advantages. Microsoft has huge resources and knows how to win customers.
- codingbot3000 1y ago
  You're quite right. The German city of Munich tried to switch their administration to Linux with their own LiMux Ubuntu flair (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux). Unfortunately some of the (generally grumpy Bavarian) employees did not like it, and Microsoft's lobbying finally got the city council to dump it.
ChrisArchitect 1y ago
[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45558635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45558635
cadamsdotcom 1y ago
Bravo to them. Hopefully some of the savings make it to foundations, hiring of engineers, and other ways of funding improvements!
ahartmetz 1y ago
Note a German state (a not very large one of the 16 federal states), not the German state
- bdangubic 1y ago
  when you want to fully get off anything running on US-based companies controlled by our King you are not gong to start with Bavaria…
  - throwaway31131 1y ago
    Maybe not all Bavaria, but the capital has been trying since 2004. https://interoperable-europe.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observatory-osor/document/munichs-long-history-open-source-public-administration https://interoperable-europe.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-so...
ocdtrekkie 1y ago
I am really curious as Microsoft deprecates some of their older proprietary protocols in favor of standards, if there will be a point Exchange can be substituted without Outlook users noticing the difference. Getting people to leave Office products is super hard, whereas the server is something most people do not know they are using. (Obviously 365 bundles are designed to avoid this. But for a la carte licenses, you can choose one without the other.)
- atesti 1y ago
  The problem is that Microsoft wants to kill Outlook and replace it with this electron webmailer.
  - skylurk 1y ago
    I end up using both because neither is very good. The webmailer one is better at conversation threads. The native one is better at scheduling meetings.
jraph 1y ago
It's not an isolated event, German states are pretty serious about this. They are funding openDesk [1], a fully open source office and collaboration suite aiming to replace solution likes Google Drive and Office 365 with sovereign solutions. Open-Xchange is one component of this suite. They are building this by taking existing software and packaging it in a consistent turn-key solution. To do this, they are paying the small European open source companies that build this existing software, to make it embeddable and accessible, and they fund specific features as well. They make sure the whole thing remains strictly open source, and they audit open source license compatibility. The approach feels solid and long term for once. It's not money that goes to your sexy local startup that builds proprietary software and will be bought by a big company a couple of years after. [1] https://opendesk.eu/ https://opendesk.eu/
- pjmlp 1y ago
  As I mention in other post, I know of libraries in NRW that rolled back into Windows from SuSE on their terminals, when time came to renew their computers. So seriousness level varies.
Woodi 1y ago
Dropping MS Exchange is only sane choice. But :) Look like replacement is Mozilla product :> j/k a bit :) Bigger problem is that replacement is fat codebase project. Same with Libreoffice. And that make it short term solution. Simple software is the way.
- dusted 1y ago
  problem with simple software in enterprise environment is lack of integration, good sso and policy control

79 points by CrankyBear 1y ago

It has been tried over the years. The question really is how much the employees understand and care about digital sovereignty. If they keep complaining because they have to learn new tools, they will eventually go back to Microsoft...

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
toomuchtodo 1y ago
The employees don't have to care, they will use whatever they're directed to use. It is whether the German government cares about digital sovereignty.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
dude250711 1y ago
I have read today that Linux users are like vegans of computing.
- misswaterfairy 1y ago
  Vegetarians for those who use a combination of open source and closed source code and applications
  - jraph 1y ago
    More like flexitarians maybe.
    - palata 1y ago
      Flexitarians just use whatever works, but they are aware that some of the stuff they use is not proprietary :-).
- estimator7292 1y ago
  Linux users in general are vegetarians. Arch users are the vegans of the Linux world. I use Arch, btw
  - jraph 1y ago
    > Arch users are the vegans of the Linux world. Why would Arch be in that position?
    - palata 1y ago
      I think the joke is about Arch users feeling the need to mention it ("I use Arch, btw"). Vegans have the same reputation, vegetarians don't.
      - jraph 1y ago
        Ah! Got it, thanks.
  - codingbot3000 1y ago
    Have you heard about the Arch Vegan already? The memes kind of write themselves...
shirro 1y ago
I doubt the employees will make a difference. It is likely more about the lobbying power of Microsoft and them finding a person at the right level who is receptive to their appeals and has the power to revert the policy. There are a lot of tech people who appreciate open source software and understand the benefits of digital sovereignty but its rare for them to have the final say in most orgs. Just about every org in my country uses Microsoft's email including universities, government, schools, businesses. I am sure it has some features that make it a good choice but its is unusual for any product to have practically 100% market share and no competition regardless of technical or usability advantages. Microsoft has huge resources and knows how to win customers.
codingbot3000 1y ago
You're quite right. The German city of Munich tried to switch their administration to Linux with their own LiMux Ubuntu flair (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux). Unfortunately some of the (generally grumpy Bavarian) employees did not like it, and Microsoft's lobbying finally got the city council to dump it.

ChrisArchitect 1y ago

[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45558635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45558635

cadamsdotcom 1y ago

Bravo to them. Hopefully some of the savings make it to foundations, hiring of engineers, and other ways of funding improvements!

ahartmetz 1y ago

Note a German state (a not very large one of the 16 federal states), not the German state

bdangubic 1y ago
when you want to fully get off anything running on US-based companies controlled by our King you are not gong to start with Bavaria…
- throwaway31131 1y ago
  Maybe not all Bavaria, but the capital has been trying since 2004. https://interoperable-europe.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observatory-osor/document/munichs-long-history-open-source-public-administration https://interoperable-europe.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-so...

ocdtrekkie 1y ago

I am really curious as Microsoft deprecates some of their older proprietary protocols in favor of standards, if there will be a point Exchange can be substituted without Outlook users noticing the difference. Getting people to leave Office products is super hard, whereas the server is something most people do not know they are using. (Obviously 365 bundles are designed to avoid this. But for a la carte licenses, you can choose one without the other.)

atesti 1y ago
The problem is that Microsoft wants to kill Outlook and replace it with this electron webmailer.
- skylurk 1y ago
  I end up using both because neither is very good. The webmailer one is better at conversation threads. The native one is better at scheduling meetings.

jraph 1y ago

It's not an isolated event, German states are pretty serious about this. They are funding openDesk [1], a fully open source office and collaboration suite aiming to replace solution likes Google Drive and Office 365 with sovereign solutions. Open-Xchange is one component of this suite. They are building this by taking existing software and packaging it in a consistent turn-key solution. To do this, they are paying the small European open source companies that build this existing software, to make it embeddable and accessible, and they fund specific features as well. They make sure the whole thing remains strictly open source, and they audit open source license compatibility. The approach feels solid and long term for once. It's not money that goes to your sexy local startup that builds proprietary software and will be bought by a big company a couple of years after. [1] https://opendesk.eu/ https://opendesk.eu/

pjmlp 1y ago
As I mention in other post, I know of libraries in NRW that rolled back into Windows from SuSE on their terminals, when time came to renew their computers. So seriousness level varies.

Woodi 1y ago

Dropping MS Exchange is only sane choice. But :) Look like replacement is Mozilla product :> j/k a bit :) Bigger problem is that replacement is fat codebase project. Same with Libreoffice. And that make it short term solution. Simple software is the way.

dusted 1y ago
problem with simple software in enterprise environment is lack of integration, good sso and policy control