4 ms·

Believe it or not, but the dutch government has agency. It's not impossible for US pressure to be a factor, but I think it's more likely the management of the c

by Doxin 1y ago

Believe it or not, but the dutch government has agency. It's not impossible for US pressure to be a factor, but I think it's more likely the management of the company was planning to move production to china or something like that. That'd (rightly!) spook the government into some quick action, especially given the political climate around Russia seemingly not being content with having their war confined to Ukraine. Unfortunately we seem to be living in interesting times.

dragonelite 1y ago
The US has immense pressure on the dutch government, given their control over ASML . Its US big tech and semi design studios that determines who will need to buy EUV from ASML. Given ASML is not allowed to do business with China, Russia etc.
- sgt101 1y ago
  Where else will they buy EUV from?
  - dragonelite 1y ago
    Its China they will create their own EUV ecosystem, there are sources that keep track of Chinese developments and there's a lot of EUV related patents being rewarded within China. So i wouldn't be surprised if they will announce first initial set of EUV test runs this year or early next year as a cherry on top of their "Made in China 2025" cake.
    - sgt101 1y ago
      1. OP and me were talking about the US government. 2. It's quite possible you are right about Chinese EUV capabilities - I don't have a clue myself as I don't work for NSA or CIA. On the other hand it's one more very big challenge in a field of big challenges and despite what the CCP says Chinese resources are very far from infinite and the clock is ticking demographically. 3. A set of EUV test runs would not impress me to be honest - a full blown production line of EUV generated chips would. The issue doesn't seem to be in doing EUV, the issue is to build systems that can sustain quality at volume.
- fwipsy 1y ago
  You could just add easily argue that the Dutch government has immense leverage over the US, since ASML controls the leading edge fab technology that underpins Nvidia etc. It seems more to me like a highly profitable partnership that neither side can credibly threaten to withdraw from.
  - markus_zhang 1y ago
    Although without any proof, but the Cold War history convinces me that US usually has the better hands when dealing with EU. US has the bigger and better sticks.
    - kelipso 1y ago
      Only with America can EU defend itself against a potential invasion from Russia. No comment on whether it will ever happen but there is no better hand than that.
  - tick_tock_tick 1y ago
    > You could just add easily argue that the Dutch government has immense leverage over the US, since ASML controls the Not really since the USA basically controls ASML. That's not even counting the USA's control over most of Europe especially the Netherlands.
    - donohoe 1y ago
      Whatever control America is supposed to have is waning rapidly. America is doing a great job of ceding its soft-power and becoming an unreliable ally at best.
echelon 1y ago
> Unfortunately we seem to be living in interesting times. China played a remarkably smart game. We let it happen. People have been telling us for twenty years that this would happen and nobody listened until it was almost too late.
- bigbadfeline 1y ago
  Either way, it cannot be stopped, China will develop independent technology sector because they can and they have no other choice. They don't trust the West and cases like this make such attitude understandable. As soon as China tries to compete with the rich monopolies, the "free market" goes out of the window and becomes "free to do as we tell you".
  - thewebguyd 1y ago
    > As soon as China tries to compete with the rich monopolies, the "free market" goes out of the window and becomes "free to do as we tell you". Hence big tech cozying up to this administration, and all the attempts to ban AI regulation. China won already, US is just trying to stop the bleeding
  - corimaith 1y ago
    >As soon as China tries to compete with the rich monopolies, the "free market" goes out of the window and becomes "free to do as we tell you". When China cannot compete with incumbents those protections also go up and when they can now people like you appeal to free trade (while ignoring existing protections). You are being overly charitable to one side here. Which is it? Free trade or Protectionism?
    - vachina 1y ago
      A big distinction is the Chinese do not meddle with affairs outside their borders.
      - LunaSea 1y ago
        They do, all the time. Price dumping is one example. Industrial and scientific espionage is another one. Hacking companies is one more.
mytailorisrich 1y ago
Ultimately the Dutch, like for instance the Australians, are a rounding error compared to China and a pawn in a bigger game. At least the Dutch can "hide" behind the EU. So there will noise but this won't stop China' rise and it won't stop Europe's decline, either.

by Doxin 1y ago

dragonelite 1y ago

The US has immense pressure on the dutch government, given their control over ASML . Its US big tech and semi design studios that determines who will need to buy EUV from ASML. Given ASML is not allowed to do business with China, Russia etc.

sgt101 1y ago
Where else will they buy EUV from?
- dragonelite 1y ago
  Its China they will create their own EUV ecosystem, there are sources that keep track of Chinese developments and there's a lot of EUV related patents being rewarded within China. So i wouldn't be surprised if they will announce first initial set of EUV test runs this year or early next year as a cherry on top of their "Made in China 2025" cake.
  - sgt101 1y ago
    1. OP and me were talking about the US government. 2. It's quite possible you are right about Chinese EUV capabilities - I don't have a clue myself as I don't work for NSA or CIA. On the other hand it's one more very big challenge in a field of big challenges and despite what the CCP says Chinese resources are very far from infinite and the clock is ticking demographically. 3. A set of EUV test runs would not impress me to be honest - a full blown production line of EUV generated chips would. The issue doesn't seem to be in doing EUV, the issue is to build systems that can sustain quality at volume.
fwipsy 1y ago
You could just add easily argue that the Dutch government has immense leverage over the US, since ASML controls the leading edge fab technology that underpins Nvidia etc. It seems more to me like a highly profitable partnership that neither side can credibly threaten to withdraw from.
- markus_zhang 1y ago
  Although without any proof, but the Cold War history convinces me that US usually has the better hands when dealing with EU. US has the bigger and better sticks.
  - kelipso 1y ago
    Only with America can EU defend itself against a potential invasion from Russia. No comment on whether it will ever happen but there is no better hand than that.
- tick_tock_tick 1y ago
  > You could just add easily argue that the Dutch government has immense leverage over the US, since ASML controls the Not really since the USA basically controls ASML. That's not even counting the USA's control over most of Europe especially the Netherlands.
  - donohoe 1y ago
    Whatever control America is supposed to have is waning rapidly. America is doing a great job of ceding its soft-power and becoming an unreliable ally at best.

echelon 1y ago

> Unfortunately we seem to be living in interesting times. China played a remarkably smart game. We let it happen. People have been telling us for twenty years that this would happen and nobody listened until it was almost too late.

bigbadfeline 1y ago
Either way, it cannot be stopped, China will develop independent technology sector because they can and they have no other choice. They don't trust the West and cases like this make such attitude understandable. As soon as China tries to compete with the rich monopolies, the "free market" goes out of the window and becomes "free to do as we tell you".
- thewebguyd 1y ago
  > As soon as China tries to compete with the rich monopolies, the "free market" goes out of the window and becomes "free to do as we tell you". Hence big tech cozying up to this administration, and all the attempts to ban AI regulation. China won already, US is just trying to stop the bleeding
- corimaith 1y ago
  >As soon as China tries to compete with the rich monopolies, the "free market" goes out of the window and becomes "free to do as we tell you". When China cannot compete with incumbents those protections also go up and when they can now people like you appeal to free trade (while ignoring existing protections). You are being overly charitable to one side here. Which is it? Free trade or Protectionism?
  - vachina 1y ago
    A big distinction is the Chinese do not meddle with affairs outside their borders.
    - LunaSea 1y ago
      They do, all the time. Price dumping is one example. Industrial and scientific espionage is another one. Hacking companies is one more.

mytailorisrich 1y ago

Ultimately the Dutch, like for instance the Australians, are a rounding error compared to China and a pawn in a bigger game. At least the Dutch can "hide" behind the EU. So there will noise but this won't stop China' rise and it won't stop Europe's decline, either.