6 ms·

These may be objectively superior (I haven't tested), but I have come to realize (like so many others) that if you ever change your OS installation, set up VMs,

by 0x37 1y ago

These may be objectively superior (I haven't tested), but I have come to realize (like so many others) that if you ever change your OS installation, set up VMs, or SSH anywhere, preferring these is just an uphill battle that never ends. I don't want to have to set these up in every new environment I operate in, or even use a mix of these on my personal computer and the traditional ones elsewhere. Learn the classic tools, learn them well, and your life will be much easier.

andai 1y ago
I wanted to say we should just stick with what Unix shipped forever. But doesn't GNU already violate that idea?
- drob518 1y ago
  Well, even “Unix” had some differences (BSD switches vs SysV switches). Theoretically, POSIX was supposed to smooth that out, but it never went away. Today, people are more likely to be operating in a GNU Linux environment than anything else (that just a market share fact, not a moral judgement, BSD lovers). Thus, for most people, GNU is the baseline.
- imcritic 1y ago
  IMO this is very stupid: don't let past dictate future. UNIX is history. History is for historians, it should not be the basis that shapes the environment for engineers living in present.
  - mprovost 1y ago
    The point is that we always exist at a point on a continuum, not at some fixed time when the current standard is set in stone. I remember setting up Solaris machines in the early 2000s with the painful SysV tools that they came with and the first thing you would do is download a package of GNU coreutils. Now those utils are "standard", unless of course you're using a Mac. And newer tools are appearing (again, finally) and the folk saying to just stick with the GNU tools because they're everywhere ignore all of the effort that went into making that (mostly) the case. So yes, let's not let the history of the GNU tools dictate how we live in the present.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
samcat116 1y ago
For some people the "uphill battle" is the fun part
pjmlp 1y ago
I know well enough my way around vi, because although XEmacs was my editor during the 1990's when working on UNIX systems, when visiting customers there was a very high probability that they only had ed and vi installed on their server systems. Many folks nowadays don't get how lucky they are, not having to do UNIX development on a time-sharing system, although cloud systems kind of replicate the experience.
- mprovost 1y ago
  Ed is the standard text editor.
  - munchlax 1y ago
    And not installed by default in many distros. FML.
    - hulitu 1y ago
      > And not installed by default in many distros. FML. ed (pronounced as distinct letters, /ˌiːˈdiː/)[1] is a line editor for Unix and Unix-like operating systems. It was one of the first parts of the Unix operating system that was developed, in August 1969.[2] It remains part of the POSIX and Open Group standards for Unix-based operating systems so it is a bug in those distros.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Doing edlin as high-school typing exam was already enough, and ed wasn't much better, which was an opinion shared by our customers back then.
  - leejo 1y ago
    For those who missed it: https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.en.html https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.en.html
landgenoot 1y ago
This is how I feel as well. Spend some time "optimizing" my CLI with oh my zshell etc. when I was young. Only to feel totally handicapped when logging in into a busybox environment. I'm glad I learned how to use vi, grep, sed.. My only change to an environment is the keyboard layout. I learned Colemak when I was young. Still enjoying it every day.
UltraSane 1y ago
"I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me."
pbduring 1y ago
so right.
oneeyedpigeon 1y ago
> Learn the classic tools, learn them well, and your life will be much easier. Agreed, but that doesn't stop you from using/learning alternatives. Just use your preferred option, based on what's available. I realise this could be too much to apply to something like a programming language (despite this, many of us know more than one) or a graphics application, but for something like a pager, it should be trivial to switch back and forth.
- acomjean 1y ago
  And when those classic tools need a little help: Awk and sed. I like the idea of new tools though. But knowing the building blocks is useful. The “Unix power tools” book was useful to get me up to speed.. there are so many of these useful mini tools. Miller is one I’ve made use of (it also was available for my distro)
skydhash 1y ago
I do prefer some of these tools, due to a much better UX, but the only one I do install in every unix box is ripgrep.
bonoboTP 1y ago
Some people spend the vast majority of their time on their own machine. The gains of convenience can be worth it. And they know enough of the classic tools that it's sufficient in the rare cases when working on another server. Not everybody is a sysadmin manually logging into lots of independent, heterogeneous servers throughout the day.
- CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
  Yeah, this is basically what I do. One example: using neovim with bunch of plugins as a daily driver, but whenever I enter a server that doesn't have it nor my settings/plugins, it isn't a huge problem to run vim or even vi, most stuff works the same. Same goes for a bunch of other tools that have "modern" alternatives but the "classic" ones are already installed/available on most default distribution setups.
- threatofrain 1y ago
  Also that workflow of SSH'ing into a machine is becoming rarer. Nowadays systems are so barren they don't even have SSH.
  - CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
    Someone might have ssh access, just not you :) VPS' will still be VPSing, even though people tend to go for managed Kubernetes or whatever the kids are doing today. But if you're renting instances/"machines", then you're most likely still using ssh.
    - blooalien 1y ago
      Ansible (system management automation) runs over SSH. So do a lot of other useful tools, like git, rsync, most everything from the "CharmBracelet" folks [1], and also anything you can port tunnel, so yeah. SSH is still useful to some of us out here. Personally, I do all my commandline stuff locally and manage remote stuff via SSH through various tools and scripting, so I get mostly the best of both worlds there. :) [1] https://github.com/charmbracelet/ https://github.com/charmbracelet/
lucasoshiro 1y ago
> that if you ever change your OS installation apt-get/pacman/dnf/brew install <everything that you need> You'll need install those and other tools (your favorite browser, you favorite text editor, etc) anyway if you're changing your OS. > or SSH anywhere When you connect through SSH you don't have GUI and that's not a reason for avoiding using GUI tools, for example. > even use a mix of these on my personal computer and the traditional ones elsewhere I can't see the problem, really. I use some of those tools and they are convenient, but it doesn't matter that I can't work without that. For example, bat: it doesn't replace cat, it only outputs data with syntax highlight, makes my life easier but if I don't have it, ok.
- MarsIronPI 1y ago
  > You'll need install those and other tools (your favorite browser, you favorite text editor, etc) anyway if you're changing your OS. The point is that sometimes you're SSHing to a lightweight headless server or something and you can't (or can't easily) install software.
  - w0m 1y ago
    Because 'sometimes' doesn't mean you should needlessly handcuf yourself the other 80% of the time. I personally haves an ansible playbook to ~setup all my commonly used tooling on ~any cli I will use significantly; (almost) all local installs to avoid need for root. It runs in ~minute - and I have all the Niceties. If it's not worth spending that minute to run; then i won't be on the machine long enough for it to matter.
    - blooalien 1y ago
      > I personally haves an ansible playbook to ~setup all my commonly used tooling on ~any cli I will use significantly; ^^ Yep. Totally this. I've become entirely too accustomed to all the little niceties of a well-crafted toolchain that covers all my needs at any given moment. It was worth the time invested to automate installing and configuring all the fancy newfangled stuff I've built up muscle-memory for. :)
  - 1y ago
kokada 1y ago
One of the reasons I really like Nix, my setup works basically everywhere (as long the host OS is either Linux or macOS, but those are the only 2 environments that I care). I don't even need root access to install Nix since there are multiple ways to install Nix rootless. But yes, in the eventual case that I don't have Nix I can very much use the classic tools. It is not a binary choice, you can have both.
- samtrack2019 1y ago
  are you going to install nix in a random docker container?
  - 0x696C6961 1y ago
    mise is a good middle ground.
    - kokada 1y ago
      I am not sure how mise would be a "good middle ground" compared to Nix, considering it is really easy to get a static binary version of Nix. Nowadays it even works standalone without creating a `/nix` directory, you can simply run the binary and it will create everything you need in `~/.local/state/nix` if I remember correctly. And of course Nix is way more powerful than mise.
  - kokada 1y ago
    That is why I said that I still know how to use basic Unix tools. If I am debugging something so frequently that I feel that I need to install my Nix configuration just to get productive there is something clearly going wrong. For example, in $CURRENT_JOB we have a bastion host that gives access to the databases (not going to discuss if this is a good idea or not, this is how my company does). 90% of time I can do whatever I need just with what the bastion host offers (that doesn't have Nix), if I need to do further analysis I can copy some files between the bastion host and my computer to do further analysis.
  - VTimofeenko 1y ago
GuB-42 1y ago
I have some of these tools, they are not "objectively superior". A lot of them make things prettier with colors, bargraphs, etc... It is nice on a well-configured terminal, not so much in a pipeline. Some of them are full TUIs, essentially graphical tools that run in a terminal rather than traditional command line tools. Some of them are smart but sometimes I want dumb, for example, ripgrep respects gitignore, and often, I don't want that. Though in this case, there is an option to turn it off (-uuu). That's a common theme with these tools too, they are trying to be smart by default and you need option to make them dumb. So no, these tools are not "objectively superior", they are generally more advanced, but it is not always what you need. They complement classic tools, but in no way replace them.
kombine 1y ago
I started a new job and spent maybe a day setting up the tools and dotfiles on my development machine in the cloud. I'm going to keep it throughout my employment so it's worth the investment. And I install most of the tools via nix package manager so I don't have to compile things or figure out how to install them on a particular Linux distribution. L
- w0m 1y ago
  Learn Ansible or similar, and you you can be ~OS (OSX/Linux/even Windows) agnostic with relatively complex setups. I set mine up before Agentic systems were as good as they are now; but I assume it would be relatively effortless now. IMO, it's worth spending some time to clean up your setup for smooth transition to new machines in the future.
trebligdivad 1y ago
Agreed, but some are nice enough that I'll make sure I get them installed where I can. 'ag' is my go to fast grep, and I get it installed on anything I use a lot.
tmountain 1y ago
Some are so vastly better that it's worth whatever small inconvenience comes with getting them installed. I know the classic tools very well, but I'll prefer fd and ripgrep every time.
- dbacar 1y ago
  +100
- BrouteMinou 1y ago
  For my part, the day I was confused why "grep" couldn't find some files that were obviously there, only to realize that "ripgrep" is ignoring files in the gitignore, that was the day I removed "ripgrep" of my system. I never asked for such behaviour, and I have no time for pretty "modern" opinions in a base software. Often, when I read "modern", I read "immature". I am not ready to replace my stable base utilities for some immature ones having behaviour changes. The scripts I wrote 5 years ago must work as is.
  - maleldil 1y ago
    The very first paragraph in ripgrep's README makes that behaviour very clear: > ripgrep is a line-oriented search tool that recursively searches the current directory for a regex pattern. By default, ripgrep will respect gitignore rules and automatically skip hidden files/directories and binary files. (To disable all automatic filtering by default, use rg -uuu.) https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep
  - burntsushi 1y ago
    You did ask for it though. Because ripgrep prominently advertises this default behavior. And it also documents that it isn't a POSIX compatible grep. Which is quite intentional. That's not immature. That's just different design decisions. Maybe it isn't the software you're using that's immature, but your vetting process for installing new tools on your machine that is immature. Because hey guess what: you can still use grep! So I built something different.
  - exdeejay_ 1y ago
ta1243 1y ago
Along those lines, Dvorak layouts are more efficent, but I use qwerty because it works pretty much everywhere (are small changes like AZERTY still a thing? Certainly our French office is an "international" layout, and generally the main pain internationally are "@" being in the wrong place, and \ not working -- for the latter you can use user@domain when logging into a windows machine, rather than domain\user)
- doodpants 1y ago
  I've been using Dvorak for 24 years. 99% of the time I'm using my own machines, so it's fine. For the other 1% I can hunt-and-peck QWERTY well enough.
112233 1y ago
Never will I ever set up tools and home environment directly on the distro. Only in a rootfs that I can proot/toolbx/bwrap into. Not only I don't want to set up again on different computer, distro upgrade has nuked "fancy" tools enough times to be not worth it.
- Gracana 1y ago
  https://proot-me.github.io/ https://proot-me.github.io/ Wow, that is so cool. This looks a lot more approachable than other sandboxing tools.
chimprich 1y ago
I tend to use some of these "modern" tools if they are a drop-in replacement for existing tools. E.g. I have ls set up aliased to eza as part of my custom set of configuration scripts. eza pretty much works as ls in most scenarios. If I'm in an environment which I control and is all configured as I like it, then I get a shinier ls with some nice defaults. If I'm in another environment then ls still works without any extra thought, and the muscle memory is the same, and I haven't lost anything. If there's a tool which works very differently to the standard suite, then it really has to be pulling its weight before I consider using it.
thiht 1y ago
That goes against the UNIX philosophy IMO. Tools doing "one thing and doing it well" also means that tools can and should be replaced when a superior alternative emerges. That's pretty much the whole point of simple utilities. I agree that you should learn the classic tools first as it's a huge investment for a whole career, but you absolutely should learn newer alternatives too. I don't care much for bat or eza, but some alternatives like fd (find alt) or sd (sed alt) are absolute time savers.
- alextingle 1y ago
  Rust's user unfriendly build paradigm puts me off using a lot of these. Ripgrep is fine when I can install it from a package manager. But if I'm on some weird machine and need to build it then first I have to build rustc, and then it wants to download gigabytes of whatever, just to compile a better 'grep'?
  - burntsushi 1y ago
    You don't need to build rustc to build ripgrep. If you are, that's a choice you are making. Cross compilation is a thing. And what weird machine doesn't have a way to install a ripgrep binary anyway? It's pretty much everywhere these days.
  - thiht 1y ago
    > But if I'm on some weird machine Then use grep, what’s your point? grep is not going away because ripgrep is better, but ripgrep might become more available? I also notice you’re saying "if", so you’re not. So again, what’s your point?
dankobgd 1y ago
i learned ansible and i run 1 command and wait 10 minutes and configure new linux machine with all the stuff i want
jauntywundrkind 1y ago
I indeed would not want to feel stranded with a bespoke toolkit. But I also don't think shying away from good tools is the answer. Generally I think using better tools is the way to go. Often there are plenty of of paths open to getting a decent environment as you go: Mostly, I rely on ansible scripts to install and configure the tools I use. One fallback I haven't seen mentioned, that can get a lot of mileage from it: use sshfs to mount the target system locally. This allows you to use local tool & setup effectively against another machine!
- reddit_clone 1y ago
  Emacs/Tramp does that for me.
PaulHoule 1y ago
When I got my first Unix account [1] I was in a Gnu emacs culture and used emacs from 1989 to 2005 or so. I made the decision to switch to vi for three reasons: (1) less clash with a culture where I mostly use GUI editors that use ^S for something very different than what emacs does, (2) vim doesn't put in continuation characters that break cut-and-paste, (3) often I would help somebody out with a busted machine where emacs wasn't installed, the package database was corrupted, etc and being able to count on an editor that is already installed to resolve any emergency is helpful. [1] Not like the time one of my friends "wardialed" every number in my local calling area and posted the list to a BBS and I found that some of them could be logged into with "uucp/uucp" and the like. I think Bell security knew he rang everybody's phone in the area but decided to let billing handle the problem because his parents had measured service.
shmerl 1y ago
I do it at least for ripgrep.
- fireflash38 1y ago
  Fzf has saved me so much time over the years. It's so good.
  - shmerl 1y ago
    Yes, good point. I use it all the time too. Plus fzf-lua in neovim which depends on it.
mcswell 1y ago
Not a comment on these particular tools, but I keep non-standard utilities that I use in my ~/bin/ directory, and they go with me when I move to a different system. The tools mentioned here could be handled the same way, making the uphill a little less steep.
dangus 1y ago
How hard is it to set up your tooling? I have a chef cookbook that sets up all the tools I like to have on my VMs. When I bootstrap a VM it includes all the stuff I want like fish shell and other things that aren’t standard. The chef cookbook also manages my SSH keys and settings.
musicale 1y ago
> Learn the classic tools, learn them well, and your life will be much easier not really contradicted by: > exa: modern replacement for ls/tree, not maintained
lousken 1y ago
For scripting, no doubt about that! But if you want to use some custom tool you can use sshfs to mount whatever is on the other side onto your system and work from there. That has its own set of limitations but it makes some stuff much easier.

by 0x37 1y ago

andai 1y ago

I wanted to say we should just stick with what Unix shipped forever. But doesn't GNU already violate that idea?

drob518 1y ago
Well, even “Unix” had some differences (BSD switches vs SysV switches). Theoretically, POSIX was supposed to smooth that out, but it never went away. Today, people are more likely to be operating in a GNU Linux environment than anything else (that just a market share fact, not a moral judgement, BSD lovers). Thus, for most people, GNU is the baseline.
imcritic 1y ago
IMO this is very stupid: don't let past dictate future. UNIX is history. History is for historians, it should not be the basis that shapes the environment for engineers living in present.
- mprovost 1y ago
  The point is that we always exist at a point on a continuum, not at some fixed time when the current standard is set in stone. I remember setting up Solaris machines in the early 2000s with the painful SysV tools that they came with and the first thing you would do is download a package of GNU coreutils. Now those utils are "standard", unless of course you're using a Mac. And newer tools are appearing (again, finally) and the folk saying to just stick with the GNU tools because they're everywhere ignore all of the effort that went into making that (mostly) the case. So yes, let's not let the history of the GNU tools dictate how we live in the present.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

samcat116 1y ago

For some people the "uphill battle" is the fun part

pjmlp 1y ago

I know well enough my way around vi, because although XEmacs was my editor during the 1990's when working on UNIX systems, when visiting customers there was a very high probability that they only had ed and vi installed on their server systems. Many folks nowadays don't get how lucky they are, not having to do UNIX development on a time-sharing system, although cloud systems kind of replicate the experience.

mprovost 1y ago
Ed is the standard text editor.
- munchlax 1y ago
  And not installed by default in many distros. FML.
  - hulitu 1y ago
    > And not installed by default in many distros. FML. ed (pronounced as distinct letters, /ˌiːˈdiː/)[1] is a line editor for Unix and Unix-like operating systems. It was one of the first parts of the Unix operating system that was developed, in August 1969.[2] It remains part of the POSIX and Open Group standards for Unix-based operating systems so it is a bug in those distros.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Doing edlin as high-school typing exam was already enough, and ed wasn't much better, which was an opinion shared by our customers back then.
- leejo 1y ago
  For those who missed it: https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.en.html https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.en.html

landgenoot 1y ago

This is how I feel as well. Spend some time "optimizing" my CLI with oh my zshell etc. when I was young. Only to feel totally handicapped when logging in into a busybox environment. I'm glad I learned how to use vi, grep, sed.. My only change to an environment is the keyboard layout. I learned Colemak when I was young. Still enjoying it every day.

UltraSane 1y ago

"I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me."

pbduring 1y ago

so right.

oneeyedpigeon 1y ago

> Learn the classic tools, learn them well, and your life will be much easier. Agreed, but that doesn't stop you from using/learning alternatives. Just use your preferred option, based on what's available. I realise this could be too much to apply to something like a programming language (despite this, many of us know more than one) or a graphics application, but for something like a pager, it should be trivial to switch back and forth.

acomjean 1y ago
And when those classic tools need a little help: Awk and sed. I like the idea of new tools though. But knowing the building blocks is useful. The “Unix power tools” book was useful to get me up to speed.. there are so many of these useful mini tools. Miller is one I’ve made use of (it also was available for my distro)

skydhash 1y ago

I do prefer some of these tools, due to a much better UX, but the only one I do install in every unix box is ripgrep.

bonoboTP 1y ago

Some people spend the vast majority of their time on their own machine. The gains of convenience can be worth it. And they know enough of the classic tools that it's sufficient in the rare cases when working on another server. Not everybody is a sysadmin manually logging into lots of independent, heterogeneous servers throughout the day.

CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
Yeah, this is basically what I do. One example: using neovim with bunch of plugins as a daily driver, but whenever I enter a server that doesn't have it nor my settings/plugins, it isn't a huge problem to run vim or even vi, most stuff works the same. Same goes for a bunch of other tools that have "modern" alternatives but the "classic" ones are already installed/available on most default distribution setups.
threatofrain 1y ago
Also that workflow of SSH'ing into a machine is becoming rarer. Nowadays systems are so barren they don't even have SSH.
- CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
  Someone might have ssh access, just not you :) VPS' will still be VPSing, even though people tend to go for managed Kubernetes or whatever the kids are doing today. But if you're renting instances/"machines", then you're most likely still using ssh.
  - blooalien 1y ago
    Ansible (system management automation) runs over SSH. So do a lot of other useful tools, like git, rsync, most everything from the "CharmBracelet" folks [1], and also anything you can port tunnel, so yeah. SSH is still useful to some of us out here. Personally, I do all my commandline stuff locally and manage remote stuff via SSH through various tools and scripting, so I get mostly the best of both worlds there. :) [1] https://github.com/charmbracelet/ https://github.com/charmbracelet/

lucasoshiro 1y ago

> that if you ever change your OS installation apt-get/pacman/dnf/brew install <everything that you need> You'll need install those and other tools (your favorite browser, you favorite text editor, etc) anyway if you're changing your OS. > or SSH anywhere When you connect through SSH you don't have GUI and that's not a reason for avoiding using GUI tools, for example. > even use a mix of these on my personal computer and the traditional ones elsewhere I can't see the problem, really. I use some of those tools and they are convenient, but it doesn't matter that I can't work without that. For example, bat: it doesn't replace cat, it only outputs data with syntax highlight, makes my life easier but if I don't have it, ok.

MarsIronPI 1y ago
> You'll need install those and other tools (your favorite browser, you favorite text editor, etc) anyway if you're changing your OS. The point is that sometimes you're SSHing to a lightweight headless server or something and you can't (or can't easily) install software.
- w0m 1y ago
  Because 'sometimes' doesn't mean you should needlessly handcuf yourself the other 80% of the time. I personally haves an ansible playbook to ~setup all my commonly used tooling on ~any cli I will use significantly; (almost) all local installs to avoid need for root. It runs in ~minute - and I have all the Niceties. If it's not worth spending that minute to run; then i won't be on the machine long enough for it to matter.
  - blooalien 1y ago
    > I personally haves an ansible playbook to ~setup all my commonly used tooling on ~any cli I will use significantly; ^^ Yep. Totally this. I've become entirely too accustomed to all the little niceties of a well-crafted toolchain that covers all my needs at any given moment. It was worth the time invested to automate installing and configuring all the fancy newfangled stuff I've built up muscle-memory for. :)
- 1y ago

kokada 1y ago

One of the reasons I really like Nix, my setup works basically everywhere (as long the host OS is either Linux or macOS, but those are the only 2 environments that I care). I don't even need root access to install Nix since there are multiple ways to install Nix rootless. But yes, in the eventual case that I don't have Nix I can very much use the classic tools. It is not a binary choice, you can have both.

samtrack2019 1y ago
are you going to install nix in a random docker container?
- 0x696C6961 1y ago
  mise is a good middle ground.
  - kokada 1y ago
    I am not sure how mise would be a "good middle ground" compared to Nix, considering it is really easy to get a static binary version of Nix. Nowadays it even works standalone without creating a `/nix` directory, you can simply run the binary and it will create everything you need in `~/.local/state/nix` if I remember correctly. And of course Nix is way more powerful than mise.
- kokada 1y ago
  That is why I said that I still know how to use basic Unix tools. If I am debugging something so frequently that I feel that I need to install my Nix configuration just to get productive there is something clearly going wrong. For example, in $CURRENT_JOB we have a bastion host that gives access to the databases (not going to discuss if this is a good idea or not, this is how my company does). 90% of time I can do whatever I need just with what the bastion host offers (that doesn't have Nix), if I need to do further analysis I can copy some files between the bastion host and my computer to do further analysis.
- VTimofeenko 1y ago

GuB-42 1y ago

I have some of these tools, they are not "objectively superior". A lot of them make things prettier with colors, bargraphs, etc... It is nice on a well-configured terminal, not so much in a pipeline. Some of them are full TUIs, essentially graphical tools that run in a terminal rather than traditional command line tools. Some of them are smart but sometimes I want dumb, for example, ripgrep respects gitignore, and often, I don't want that. Though in this case, there is an option to turn it off (-uuu). That's a common theme with these tools too, they are trying to be smart by default and you need option to make them dumb. So no, these tools are not "objectively superior", they are generally more advanced, but it is not always what you need. They complement classic tools, but in no way replace them.

kombine 1y ago

I started a new job and spent maybe a day setting up the tools and dotfiles on my development machine in the cloud. I'm going to keep it throughout my employment so it's worth the investment. And I install most of the tools via nix package manager so I don't have to compile things or figure out how to install them on a particular Linux distribution. L

w0m 1y ago
Learn Ansible or similar, and you you can be ~OS (OSX/Linux/even Windows) agnostic with relatively complex setups. I set mine up before Agentic systems were as good as they are now; but I assume it would be relatively effortless now. IMO, it's worth spending some time to clean up your setup for smooth transition to new machines in the future.

trebligdivad 1y ago

Agreed, but some are nice enough that I'll make sure I get them installed where I can. 'ag' is my go to fast grep, and I get it installed on anything I use a lot.

tmountain 1y ago

Some are so vastly better that it's worth whatever small inconvenience comes with getting them installed. I know the classic tools very well, but I'll prefer fd and ripgrep every time.

dbacar 1y ago
+100
BrouteMinou 1y ago
For my part, the day I was confused why "grep" couldn't find some files that were obviously there, only to realize that "ripgrep" is ignoring files in the gitignore, that was the day I removed "ripgrep" of my system. I never asked for such behaviour, and I have no time for pretty "modern" opinions in a base software. Often, when I read "modern", I read "immature". I am not ready to replace my stable base utilities for some immature ones having behaviour changes. The scripts I wrote 5 years ago must work as is.
- maleldil 1y ago
  The very first paragraph in ripgrep's README makes that behaviour very clear: > ripgrep is a line-oriented search tool that recursively searches the current directory for a regex pattern. By default, ripgrep will respect gitignore rules and automatically skip hidden files/directories and binary files. (To disable all automatic filtering by default, use rg -uuu.) https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep
- burntsushi 1y ago
  You did ask for it though. Because ripgrep prominently advertises this default behavior. And it also documents that it isn't a POSIX compatible grep. Which is quite intentional. That's not immature. That's just different design decisions. Maybe it isn't the software you're using that's immature, but your vetting process for installing new tools on your machine that is immature. Because hey guess what: you can still use grep! So I built something different.
- exdeejay_ 1y ago

ta1243 1y ago

Along those lines, Dvorak layouts are more efficent, but I use qwerty because it works pretty much everywhere (are small changes like AZERTY still a thing? Certainly our French office is an "international" layout, and generally the main pain internationally are "@" being in the wrong place, and \ not working -- for the latter you can use user@domain when logging into a windows machine, rather than domain\user)

doodpants 1y ago
I've been using Dvorak for 24 years. 99% of the time I'm using my own machines, so it's fine. For the other 1% I can hunt-and-peck QWERTY well enough.

112233 1y ago

Never will I ever set up tools and home environment directly on the distro. Only in a rootfs that I can proot/toolbx/bwrap into. Not only I don't want to set up again on different computer, distro upgrade has nuked "fancy" tools enough times to be not worth it.

Gracana 1y ago
https://proot-me.github.io/ https://proot-me.github.io/ Wow, that is so cool. This looks a lot more approachable than other sandboxing tools.

chimprich 1y ago

I tend to use some of these "modern" tools if they are a drop-in replacement for existing tools. E.g. I have ls set up aliased to eza as part of my custom set of configuration scripts. eza pretty much works as ls in most scenarios. If I'm in an environment which I control and is all configured as I like it, then I get a shinier ls with some nice defaults. If I'm in another environment then ls still works without any extra thought, and the muscle memory is the same, and I haven't lost anything. If there's a tool which works very differently to the standard suite, then it really has to be pulling its weight before I consider using it.

thiht 1y ago

That goes against the UNIX philosophy IMO. Tools doing "one thing and doing it well" also means that tools can and should be replaced when a superior alternative emerges. That's pretty much the whole point of simple utilities. I agree that you should learn the classic tools first as it's a huge investment for a whole career, but you absolutely should learn newer alternatives too. I don't care much for bat or eza, but some alternatives like fd (find alt) or sd (sed alt) are absolute time savers.

alextingle 1y ago
Rust's user unfriendly build paradigm puts me off using a lot of these. Ripgrep is fine when I can install it from a package manager. But if I'm on some weird machine and need to build it then first I have to build rustc, and then it wants to download gigabytes of whatever, just to compile a better 'grep'?
- burntsushi 1y ago
  You don't need to build rustc to build ripgrep. If you are, that's a choice you are making. Cross compilation is a thing. And what weird machine doesn't have a way to install a ripgrep binary anyway? It's pretty much everywhere these days.
- thiht 1y ago
  > But if I'm on some weird machine Then use grep, what’s your point? grep is not going away because ripgrep is better, but ripgrep might become more available? I also notice you’re saying "if", so you’re not. So again, what’s your point?

dankobgd 1y ago

i learned ansible and i run 1 command and wait 10 minutes and configure new linux machine with all the stuff i want

jauntywundrkind 1y ago

I indeed would not want to feel stranded with a bespoke toolkit. But I also don't think shying away from good tools is the answer. Generally I think using better tools is the way to go. Often there are plenty of of paths open to getting a decent environment as you go: Mostly, I rely on ansible scripts to install and configure the tools I use. One fallback I haven't seen mentioned, that can get a lot of mileage from it: use sshfs to mount the target system locally. This allows you to use local tool & setup effectively against another machine!

reddit_clone 1y ago
Emacs/Tramp does that for me.

PaulHoule 1y ago

When I got my first Unix account [1] I was in a Gnu emacs culture and used emacs from 1989 to 2005 or so. I made the decision to switch to vi for three reasons: (1) less clash with a culture where I mostly use GUI editors that use ^S for something very different than what emacs does, (2) vim doesn't put in continuation characters that break cut-and-paste, (3) often I would help somebody out with a busted machine where emacs wasn't installed, the package database was corrupted, etc and being able to count on an editor that is already installed to resolve any emergency is helpful. [1] Not like the time one of my friends "wardialed" every number in my local calling area and posted the list to a BBS and I found that some of them could be logged into with "uucp/uucp" and the like. I think Bell security knew he rang everybody's phone in the area but decided to let billing handle the problem because his parents had measured service.

shmerl 1y ago

I do it at least for ripgrep.

fireflash38 1y ago
Fzf has saved me so much time over the years. It's so good.
- shmerl 1y ago
  Yes, good point. I use it all the time too. Plus fzf-lua in neovim which depends on it.

mcswell 1y ago

Not a comment on these particular tools, but I keep non-standard utilities that I use in my ~/bin/ directory, and they go with me when I move to a different system. The tools mentioned here could be handled the same way, making the uphill a little less steep.

dangus 1y ago

How hard is it to set up your tooling? I have a chef cookbook that sets up all the tools I like to have on my VMs. When I bootstrap a VM it includes all the stuff I want like fish shell and other things that aren’t standard. The chef cookbook also manages my SSH keys and settings.

musicale 1y ago

> Learn the classic tools, learn them well, and your life will be much easier not really contradicted by: > exa: modern replacement for ls/tree, not maintained

lousken 1y ago

For scripting, no doubt about that! But if you want to use some custom tool you can use sshfs to mount whatever is on the other side onto your system and work from there. That has its own set of limitations but it makes some stuff much easier.