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Paine kind of hit the nail on the head with this one: > "The law is king!" The 2024 Nobel prize in economics[1] was awarded to a team of three who investigate

Paine kind of hit the nail on the head with this one: > "The law is king!" The 2024 Nobel prize in economics[1] was awarded to a team of three who investigated what causes a nation to prosper and identified "rule of law" as an essential ingredient[2]. [1]: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/2024/press-release/ https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/2024/pre... [2]: https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-economists-daron-acemoglu-simon-johnson-nobel-prize-economics-1014 https://news.mit.edu/2024/mit-economists-daron-acemoglu-simo...

readthenotes1 1y ago
So you get a Nobel prize for proving Benjamin Franklin right (who was rephrasing a more ancient saying). Charlie Munger recalled it in 2003 as “Where there is no bread, there is no law; where there is no law, there is no bread.” It's going to be some easy picking if more figure that out ...
- Yoric 1y ago
  Now remember that there's an entire current in Silicon Valley that advocates against rule of law, at least when applied to them. Oh, and a felon taking some liberties with law sitting at the White House. Yeah, I think reminding people that you don't get prosperity without rule of law is a good idea.
  - BrenBarn 1y ago
    Not a good enough idea, apparently, given that what you said in the first paragraph is happening.
ecocentrik 1y ago
Nice slogan but right now in America, money is king and the law is bent to accommodate the wills of rich lawless men.
- black_13 1y ago
  [dead]
- vanviegen 1y ago
  Which is probably the point GP and OP are trying to make.
- bix6 1y ago
  They aren’t bending the law, they’re outright breaking it. The question is whether we’ll demand enforcement or not. So far there has not been sufficient outrage to demand true enforcement.
  - jopsen 1y ago
    Yeah,.critical reporters fall out of windows in Manhattan all the time. </sarcasm> That's not to say that America doesn't have problems. That the problems aren't unique. But there has always been problems, and they have always been new. Over time America and the rest of the western world, will adapt and move on to new problems :)
simpaticoder 1y ago
Good comment. There is a trade-off between principle and loyalty, and "rule of law" puts the dial hard over to "principle". The mechanism behind its success is that it puts a society solidly into the "cooperate" Nash equilibrium. (Loyalty, by contrast, puts a society solidly into the "defect" equilibrium). I suspect that Christianity, taken broadly, also pushes the dial hard over to "principle". First, it "undermines" temporal loyalty by stressing loyalty to God. Second it installs a panopticon within the believers mind that guards access to eternal bliss. Third it provides a non-commercial venue for civic life (the church on Sunday) where "stink eye" becomes a meaningful enforcement mechanism of norms. I fear that the late 20th century focus entirely on the (real and very serious) error-modes of these mechanisms to the exclusion of understanding of their value. This throws the baby out with the bathwater. The secular reaction is to pass an ever-increasing and ever more comprehensive set of laws in a vain attempt to replace the loss of norms. When that finally fails (as it inevitably must) you decay into the "defect" Nash equilibrium, put the dial back over to loyalty over principle, abandon the fundamental innovation of the Enlightenment, and your civilization falls.
- yks 1y ago
  Blame “secular reaction” all you want, but with the New Apostolic Reformation the temporal loyalty becomes a pre-requisite to the loyalty to God
- guelo 1y ago
  Only Christianity? none of the other religions? It's funny pushing religion on a Thomas Payne post since he rejected religion as corrupt and irrational.
  - simpaticoder 1y ago
    The experiment has only been run once, and it was mostly a white, Christian project. Payne's personal values doesn't change the facts of the experiment. If we could go back in time and witness the invention of the Enlightenment, political Liberalism, and Industrialization for other (race, religion) pairs, I'd love to do it. Maybe we can, as a proxy, look across the world at how different (race, religion) pairs have adopted liberal values to see if there are any patterns.
deleted 1y ago
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readthenotes1 1y ago

So you get a Nobel prize for proving Benjamin Franklin right (who was rephrasing a more ancient saying). Charlie Munger recalled it in 2003 as “Where there is no bread, there is no law; where there is no law, there is no bread.” It's going to be some easy picking if more figure that out ...

Yoric 1y ago
Now remember that there's an entire current in Silicon Valley that advocates against rule of law, at least when applied to them. Oh, and a felon taking some liberties with law sitting at the White House. Yeah, I think reminding people that you don't get prosperity without rule of law is a good idea.
- BrenBarn 1y ago
  Not a good enough idea, apparently, given that what you said in the first paragraph is happening.

ecocentrik 1y ago

Nice slogan but right now in America, money is king and the law is bent to accommodate the wills of rich lawless men.

black_13 1y ago
[dead]
vanviegen 1y ago
Which is probably the point GP and OP are trying to make.
bix6 1y ago
They aren’t bending the law, they’re outright breaking it. The question is whether we’ll demand enforcement or not. So far there has not been sufficient outrage to demand true enforcement.
- jopsen 1y ago
  Yeah,.critical reporters fall out of windows in Manhattan all the time. </sarcasm> That's not to say that America doesn't have problems. That the problems aren't unique. But there has always been problems, and they have always been new. Over time America and the rest of the western world, will adapt and move on to new problems :)

simpaticoder 1y ago

Good comment. There is a trade-off between principle and loyalty, and "rule of law" puts the dial hard over to "principle". The mechanism behind its success is that it puts a society solidly into the "cooperate" Nash equilibrium. (Loyalty, by contrast, puts a society solidly into the "defect" equilibrium). I suspect that Christianity, taken broadly, also pushes the dial hard over to "principle". First, it "undermines" temporal loyalty by stressing loyalty to God. Second it installs a panopticon within the believers mind that guards access to eternal bliss. Third it provides a non-commercial venue for civic life (the church on Sunday) where "stink eye" becomes a meaningful enforcement mechanism of norms. I fear that the late 20th century focus entirely on the (real and very serious) error-modes of these mechanisms to the exclusion of understanding of their value. This throws the baby out with the bathwater. The secular reaction is to pass an ever-increasing and ever more comprehensive set of laws in a vain attempt to replace the loss of norms. When that finally fails (as it inevitably must) you decay into the "defect" Nash equilibrium, put the dial back over to loyalty over principle, abandon the fundamental innovation of the Enlightenment, and your civilization falls.

yks 1y ago
Blame “secular reaction” all you want, but with the New Apostolic Reformation the temporal loyalty becomes a pre-requisite to the loyalty to God
guelo 1y ago
Only Christianity? none of the other religions? It's funny pushing religion on a Thomas Payne post since he rejected religion as corrupt and irrational.
- simpaticoder 1y ago
  The experiment has only been run once, and it was mostly a white, Christian project. Payne's personal values doesn't change the facts of the experiment. If we could go back in time and witness the invention of the Enlightenment, political Liberalism, and Industrialization for other (race, religion) pairs, I'd love to do it. Maybe we can, as a proxy, look across the world at how different (race, religion) pairs have adopted liberal values to see if there are any patterns.

deleted 1y ago

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