4 ms·

There is absolutely no way an OTA update should be able to impact anything powertrain related, it should be limited to the infotainment system and accessories.

There is absolutely no way an OTA update should be able to impact anything powertrain related, it should be limited to the infotainment system and accessories. PCM updates should require a hard connection to the vehicle's OBD port at the dealership/mechanic (or a home user with the appropriate software and cable). NHTSA should investigate this.

PKop 1y ago
This update was for the infotainment system. To your point, that system should somehow be air-gapped from affecting the engine and power. There's way too much coupling of all this software and electrical components.
- cosmicgadget 1y ago
  Uh how would you change vehicle performance settings?
  - jimmaswell 1y ago
    connect to the OBD2 port or something? there are lots of alternatives
    - cosmicgadget 1y ago
      A diagnostic port for a Jeep to switch from city to offroad? Or power mode to econ?
  - noisem4ker 1y ago
    For the sake of answering you: through dedicated physical switches (such as Ferrari's famous manettino). What I really think: my car shouldn't have any bullshit "modes" to select from. Tune it once at the factory to some reasonable compromise, and perhaps make certain settings writable through the OBD port, and that will be it.
    - cosmicgadget 1y ago
      I suppose you could have independent, air-gapped cockpit drive control systems and infotainment systems. It's probably less ecomomical and automatic e911 would be harder to do. At a bare minimum any EV driver is going to want two power delivery modes. Jeep people surely don't want to plug in an OBD dongle when they go off road.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
NewJazz 1y ago
Why? If the system only updates with user consent, what is the difference between ota and taking the car to a dogshit dealership?
1970-01-01 1y ago
Tesla has been doing these OTA powertrain updates for over a decade. It's totally fine when you follow best practices and do good QA. Stellantis doesn't QA.
- jimmaswell 1y ago
  Why would my powertrain need an update? What new laws of physics relating to torque and gear reduction have been discovered since my car was produced?
  - 1970-01-01 1y ago
    The laws of physics that dictate power, range, efficiency, safety, etc. Go read about this.
cosmicgadget 1y ago
Why? Requiring physical updates just makes pushing fixes harder. Obviously no vehicle should be updated while in operation and all patches should be signed.
- quesera 1y ago
  I think that's the crux of it. Obviously, "software update while traveling at highway speeds" is just rolling too many drama dice. OTA is fine. Ideally parked, or minimally A/B on the firmware, new version only run on next startup.
  - cosmicgadget 1y ago
    I didn't read too deeply but I bet the drivetime failures were because the issue manifested after the vehicle started operating. A rolling FOTA update seems like it would not be certified and would be harder to implement anyway. This would also mean the A/B failover would need to identify the problem as a bad update rather than a bug that pops up minutes later.
    - quesera 1y ago
      You're right, and I should not have implied homicidal negligence on the part of the engineers involved. Assuming the best, it might just be an extremely rare corner case that was unknown and inadequately covered in QA. This stuff can get complicated, and cars are the most dangerous technology that is sold to retail customers.
bri3d 1y ago
This reads like an OTA to the infotainment that messed up powertrain somehow. Plenty of manufacturers successfully OTA powertrain these days by using A/B flashing (the B flash programs while the car drives, next key cycle swaps to B and flashes A in background, next key cycle back to A, done). My suspicion is that this was either a CAN saturation issue (ie - infotainment started sending a high priority message which could reach powertrain CAN) or a state management issue (ie - infotainment sent a “put modules to sleep” or “wake modules” message which was not handled correctly and caused one or more modules to transition to an invalid state for driving).
- patrick451 1y ago
  > My suspicion is that this was either a CAN saturation issue (ie - infotainment started sending a high priority message which could reach powertrain CAN) or a state management issue (ie - infotainment sent a “put modules to sleep” or “wake modules” message which was not handled correctly and caused one or more modules to transition to an invalid state for driving). The fact that this possible proves the point: OTA updates are dangerous and should be banned.
  - bri3d 1y ago
    I don’t agree that OTA should be banned, but I do think that additionally restricting in-motion OTA could be reasonable. OTA which is always opt in and modal is no different from diagnostic port updates except that it cuts out the need for a dealer visit. This seems fine to me.
    - therein 1y ago
      Yeah I am fine with OTA updates affecting anything as long as they are explicitly opt-in. I'd support mandating a physical switch that controls the power to the modem to be present.
      - auguzanellato 1y ago
        There’s usually a fuse you can pull for the telematics/modem unit

PKop 1y ago

This update was for the infotainment system. To your point, that system should somehow be air-gapped from affecting the engine and power. There's way too much coupling of all this software and electrical components.

cosmicgadget 1y ago
Uh how would you change vehicle performance settings?
- jimmaswell 1y ago
  connect to the OBD2 port or something? there are lots of alternatives
  - cosmicgadget 1y ago
    A diagnostic port for a Jeep to switch from city to offroad? Or power mode to econ?
- noisem4ker 1y ago
  For the sake of answering you: through dedicated physical switches (such as Ferrari's famous manettino). What I really think: my car shouldn't have any bullshit "modes" to select from. Tune it once at the factory to some reasonable compromise, and perhaps make certain settings writable through the OBD port, and that will be it.
  - cosmicgadget 1y ago
    I suppose you could have independent, air-gapped cockpit drive control systems and infotainment systems. It's probably less ecomomical and automatic e911 would be harder to do. At a bare minimum any EV driver is going to want two power delivery modes. Jeep people surely don't want to plug in an OBD dongle when they go off road.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

NewJazz 1y ago

Why? If the system only updates with user consent, what is the difference between ota and taking the car to a dogshit dealership?

1970-01-01 1y ago

Tesla has been doing these OTA powertrain updates for over a decade. It's totally fine when you follow best practices and do good QA. Stellantis doesn't QA.

jimmaswell 1y ago
Why would my powertrain need an update? What new laws of physics relating to torque and gear reduction have been discovered since my car was produced?
- 1970-01-01 1y ago
  The laws of physics that dictate power, range, efficiency, safety, etc. Go read about this.

cosmicgadget 1y ago

Why? Requiring physical updates just makes pushing fixes harder. Obviously no vehicle should be updated while in operation and all patches should be signed.

quesera 1y ago
I think that's the crux of it. Obviously, "software update while traveling at highway speeds" is just rolling too many drama dice. OTA is fine. Ideally parked, or minimally A/B on the firmware, new version only run on next startup.
- cosmicgadget 1y ago
  I didn't read too deeply but I bet the drivetime failures were because the issue manifested after the vehicle started operating. A rolling FOTA update seems like it would not be certified and would be harder to implement anyway. This would also mean the A/B failover would need to identify the problem as a bad update rather than a bug that pops up minutes later.
  - quesera 1y ago
    You're right, and I should not have implied homicidal negligence on the part of the engineers involved. Assuming the best, it might just be an extremely rare corner case that was unknown and inadequately covered in QA. This stuff can get complicated, and cars are the most dangerous technology that is sold to retail customers.

bri3d 1y ago

This reads like an OTA to the infotainment that messed up powertrain somehow. Plenty of manufacturers successfully OTA powertrain these days by using A/B flashing (the B flash programs while the car drives, next key cycle swaps to B and flashes A in background, next key cycle back to A, done). My suspicion is that this was either a CAN saturation issue (ie - infotainment started sending a high priority message which could reach powertrain CAN) or a state management issue (ie - infotainment sent a “put modules to sleep” or “wake modules” message which was not handled correctly and caused one or more modules to transition to an invalid state for driving).

patrick451 1y ago
> My suspicion is that this was either a CAN saturation issue (ie - infotainment started sending a high priority message which could reach powertrain CAN) or a state management issue (ie - infotainment sent a “put modules to sleep” or “wake modules” message which was not handled correctly and caused one or more modules to transition to an invalid state for driving). The fact that this possible proves the point: OTA updates are dangerous and should be banned.
- bri3d 1y ago
  I don’t agree that OTA should be banned, but I do think that additionally restricting in-motion OTA could be reasonable. OTA which is always opt in and modal is no different from diagnostic port updates except that it cuts out the need for a dealer visit. This seems fine to me.
  - therein 1y ago
    Yeah I am fine with OTA updates affecting anything as long as they are explicitly opt-in. I'd support mandating a physical switch that controls the power to the modem to be present.
    - auguzanellato 1y ago
      There’s usually a fuse you can pull for the telematics/modem unit