3 ms·

The question is why either one has to be in the passport.

by shevy-java 1y ago

wakawaka28 1y ago
To accurately identify the person, obviously. Don't be silly.
- viraptor 1y ago
  And how exactly is that used? I mean, I've never been asked to drop my pants, run a chromosome or hormones test, get an ultrasound, or do any other thing that people typically have in mind when they mention someone's sex. The photo already gives them the "male/female presenting" part when it's checked.
  - throw_a_grenade 1y ago
    It should be used exactly so you don't have to drop your pants in public to prove your sex, e.g. to access single sex spaces like sport categories. But that requires the field to be filled accurately by whoever issues the document. The fact that this field was not filled accurately led some organisations (most famously World Boxing, but not only) to resort to sex testing. Facing such choice (either accurate data in readily available government-issued ID or SRY test around every corner), I'd prefer the paper document contained reliable data.
    - ben_w 1y ago
      None of those things are present during a border crossing, for which you want to "pass" a "port". Also, the physical differences which matter to some sports (again, why is this in a passport, my passport doesn't say if I'm qualified to drive race cars or if I am allowed to possess* a rifle for shooting competitions) relate not simply to what's between your legs, but to the hormones which are merely correlated with that. The effect of such hormones is also why some trans people ask for puberty blockers, and in any case there's a significant black market for oestrogen and testosterone boosters. And if you do care specifically about what's between people's legs, because you want to know how many urinals to install or something, then it should be fine to change the document (but again, why a passport?) as soon as genital surgery has been completed even in the absence of any impact of hormonal changes. Most extreme contradiction of the "protect women's sports" talking point I've seen? As muscled-up as Dwayne Johnson or Schwarzenegger, bald, beard, no dick, identified female at birth. * Outside the USA, we don't have or want the 2nd A, so yes a gun would need a licence.
      - throw_a_grenade 1y ago
        > None of those things are present during a border crossing, for which you want to "pass" a "port". > but again, why a passport? Passport isn't only for crossing the border, but to identify for the whole duration of the visit. Travellers don't have national ID documents by definition, and the passport serves this purpose. E.g. I don't know about your country, but if someone is travelling to my country, he or she is required to keep the passport in the pocket at all times and present to authorities on demand if s/he is stopped on street[1]. So when accessing women-only spaces, like applying for international sports tournaments held in other countries, this will be the document checked. If you'd like an example involving border crossing, again I don't know much about your country, but if one attempts to cross the border of mine, one of the results might be that you'd be interned in a facility for illegal migrants that for some reason won't be getting political asylum, but can't be deported to the home country either. It would then matter if the person is a man or a woman. Just asking the person is not sufficient, because we can't just allow men to identify themselves into women's wing, as that would violate rights of the women kept there and not free to go elsewhere. [1] this is contrary to citizens, who aren't generally required to have any ID on oneself, and can just say the name and number if stopped)
      - pandaman 1y ago
        Passports also are for identification inside the country. You are not getting issued a local government ID after you "pass" "port", you keep using your passport.
  - wakawaka28 1y ago
    If you were to be arrested, or found dead, you would be thoroughly searched. Photos alone can be ambiguous besides. It is also relevant if you present yourself to be married. I guess the worst case scenario to worry about is having random people impersonating other random people. Accurately communicating the sex of the individual reduces the potential for impersonation by probably 50% or more, because people are VERY good at detecting biological sex (regardless of what trans people think of their presentations).
    - ben_w 1y ago
      > Accurately communicating the sex of the individual reduces the potential for impersonation by probably 50% or more, because people are VERY good at detecting biological sex (regardless of what trans people think of their presentations). 1) If that was true, it still wouldn't be nessesary to record gender as it would cause the presence of disguise to be more obvious. 2) if you want to disguise person A as person B, you pick A that looks like B, it isn't random: Elijah Wood and Daniel Radcliffe famously look alike, neither is going to appear in a biopic of The Rock in the role of Dwayne Johnson. 3) You have no idea how many false negatives or false positives you're making if you don't ask for their background. Everyone trans person who passes, necessarily doesn't "look trans": Won't say where to avoid outing her, but I suggested a trans woman I knew apply to a team I was in, after she got it the boss (1) took me aside to tell me that she was trans, (2) was shocked when I said I already knew. She had not had surgery by that point, and the company only noticed the transition because she'd also applied to the company before starting the transition. And conversely some cis people do "look trans", e.g. The French president's wife based on some recent conspiracy theory that makes no sense to me because I can't imagine caring if someone else's spouse has or doesn't have a medical history relating to their genitals.

The question is why either one has to be in the passport.

wakawaka28 1y ago

To accurately identify the person, obviously. Don't be silly.

viraptor 1y ago
And how exactly is that used? I mean, I've never been asked to drop my pants, run a chromosome or hormones test, get an ultrasound, or do any other thing that people typically have in mind when they mention someone's sex. The photo already gives them the "male/female presenting" part when it's checked.
- throw_a_grenade 1y ago
  It should be used exactly so you don't have to drop your pants in public to prove your sex, e.g. to access single sex spaces like sport categories. But that requires the field to be filled accurately by whoever issues the document. The fact that this field was not filled accurately led some organisations (most famously World Boxing, but not only) to resort to sex testing. Facing such choice (either accurate data in readily available government-issued ID or SRY test around every corner), I'd prefer the paper document contained reliable data.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    None of those things are present during a border crossing, for which you want to "pass" a "port". Also, the physical differences which matter to some sports (again, why is this in a passport, my passport doesn't say if I'm qualified to drive race cars or if I am allowed to possess* a rifle for shooting competitions) relate not simply to what's between your legs, but to the hormones which are merely correlated with that. The effect of such hormones is also why some trans people ask for puberty blockers, and in any case there's a significant black market for oestrogen and testosterone boosters. And if you do care specifically about what's between people's legs, because you want to know how many urinals to install or something, then it should be fine to change the document (but again, why a passport?) as soon as genital surgery has been completed even in the absence of any impact of hormonal changes. Most extreme contradiction of the "protect women's sports" talking point I've seen? As muscled-up as Dwayne Johnson or Schwarzenegger, bald, beard, no dick, identified female at birth. * Outside the USA, we don't have or want the 2nd A, so yes a gun would need a licence.
    - throw_a_grenade 1y ago
      > None of those things are present during a border crossing, for which you want to "pass" a "port". > but again, why a passport? Passport isn't only for crossing the border, but to identify for the whole duration of the visit. Travellers don't have national ID documents by definition, and the passport serves this purpose. E.g. I don't know about your country, but if someone is travelling to my country, he or she is required to keep the passport in the pocket at all times and present to authorities on demand if s/he is stopped on street[1]. So when accessing women-only spaces, like applying for international sports tournaments held in other countries, this will be the document checked. If you'd like an example involving border crossing, again I don't know much about your country, but if one attempts to cross the border of mine, one of the results might be that you'd be interned in a facility for illegal migrants that for some reason won't be getting political asylum, but can't be deported to the home country either. It would then matter if the person is a man or a woman. Just asking the person is not sufficient, because we can't just allow men to identify themselves into women's wing, as that would violate rights of the women kept there and not free to go elsewhere. [1] this is contrary to citizens, who aren't generally required to have any ID on oneself, and can just say the name and number if stopped)
    - pandaman 1y ago
      Passports also are for identification inside the country. You are not getting issued a local government ID after you "pass" "port", you keep using your passport.
- wakawaka28 1y ago
  If you were to be arrested, or found dead, you would be thoroughly searched. Photos alone can be ambiguous besides. It is also relevant if you present yourself to be married. I guess the worst case scenario to worry about is having random people impersonating other random people. Accurately communicating the sex of the individual reduces the potential for impersonation by probably 50% or more, because people are VERY good at detecting biological sex (regardless of what trans people think of their presentations).
  - ben_w 1y ago
    > Accurately communicating the sex of the individual reduces the potential for impersonation by probably 50% or more, because people are VERY good at detecting biological sex (regardless of what trans people think of their presentations). 1) If that was true, it still wouldn't be nessesary to record gender as it would cause the presence of disguise to be more obvious. 2) if you want to disguise person A as person B, you pick A that looks like B, it isn't random: Elijah Wood and Daniel Radcliffe famously look alike, neither is going to appear in a biopic of The Rock in the role of Dwayne Johnson. 3) You have no idea how many false negatives or false positives you're making if you don't ask for their background. Everyone trans person who passes, necessarily doesn't "look trans": Won't say where to avoid outing her, but I suggested a trans woman I knew apply to a team I was in, after she got it the boss (1) took me aside to tell me that she was trans, (2) was shocked when I said I already knew. She had not had surgery by that point, and the company only noticed the transition because she'd also applied to the company before starting the transition. And conversely some cis people do "look trans", e.g. The French president's wife based on some recent conspiracy theory that makes no sense to me because I can't imagine caring if someone else's spouse has or doesn't have a medical history relating to their genitals.