4 ms·
Since shortly after I graduated, I have been surprised by quite how many trans people I have known. So for me, I do spend a decent amount of time thinking about
by ben_w 1y ago
Since shortly after I graduated, I have been surprised by quite how many trans people I have known. So for me, I do spend a decent amount of time thinking about it.
But as a deeper question: why is gender even listed on a passport in the first place? Why does it matter for the thing a passport does, letting you pass through a port?
Picture: yes, is the person standing in front of me authorised to travel in general? Name: yes, is the person standing in front of me connected to this specific non-transferable ticket with a name on it?
Gender: who cares, it's not like planes and trains have separate male and female seating and toilets.
- decremental 1y ago[dead]
- jojobas 1y agoSome trains do have separate male and female compartments.
- setopt 1y agoDo they check passports to validate who goes where?
- shevy-java 1y agoHow is access controlled here? Surely not based on the passport right?
- throw_a_grenade 1y agoBased on passport. If co-passenger complains, crew comes and demands travel document.
- danaris 1y ago...Are families forced to ride separately? What country is this, anyway? Y'know, so my wife and I can never ever go there.
- croes 1y agoIsn’t it about the sex field? I thought gender != sex.
- viraptor 1y agoYes, but the question doesn't change. Why should we care what that field says.
- shevy-java 1y agoThe question is why either one has to be in the passport.
- wakawaka28 1y agoTo accurately identify the person, obviously. Don't be silly.
- viraptor 1y agoAnd how exactly is that used? I mean, I've never been asked to drop my pants, run a chromosome or hormones test, get an ultrasound, or do any other thing that people typically have in mind when they mention someone's sex. The photo already gives them the "male/female presenting" part when it's checked.
- throw_a_grenade 1y agoIt should be used exactly so you don't have to drop your pants in public to prove your sex, e.g. to access single sex spaces like sport categories. But that requires the field to be filled accurately by whoever issues the document. The fact that this field was not filled accurately led some organisations (most famously World Boxing, but not only) to resort to sex testing. Facing such choice (either accurate data in readily available government-issued ID or SRY test around every corner), I'd prefer the paper document contained reliable data.
- 1y ago
- shevy-java 1y ago> why is gender even listed on a passport in the first place? That is a very valid question. We already have face-scans and fingerprint IDs so we are all treated as criminals. There is indeed zero point to have a binary-toggle field where one has to identify as either male or female. I'd like to add here that I don't care about this field; or I would want to check that I am an epic supergender, the very best - 'A' for awesome. But they don't allow this, so I don't want to have to care about this weird grouping I disagree with.
- broken-kebab 1y agoIt's pretty universal across all societies to allocate different rights, and obligations according to physical characteristics, and sex is probably the most important one. Though humans are very good at determining other humans' sexes in immediate communication there plenty of cases which are handled indirectly. Therefore documented sex is reasonably important bit of information
- Brian_K_White 1y agoSomeone asserted that a thing is done which has no rational purpose. You have observed that a thing is done, which was already observed. You have not explained in what way it has a rational purpose, or added to the conversation. It's not important. It's merely treated as important, which we already knew, because that was the setting for the question in the first place.
- veeti 1y agoIn the United States of America, the "draft" has historically applied to those categorized as "male". Today, the "Selective Service System" asserts that "Federal law requires nearly all male U.S. citizens and male immigrants to register at age 18". Likewise, many countries still enforce selective conscription by gender. You may not like or approve of these things, but they are part of the "purpose" you seek.
- 1y ago
- Ekaros 1y agoWhy not then just get rid of entire concept? Just abolish it everywhere and treat everyone the same. Seems to me like most reasonable and inclusive option. If system can't identify persons sex or gender system can not discriminate against them.
- wakawaka28 1y agoBecause a person's sex is a basic descriptor. They also ask for height, weight, hair/eye color, and race. If someone had to identify your dead body, it would be critical to know your sex. We don't need to pretend that this concept doesn't exist, or escalate toward some biometric bullshit, just to appease some extremely tiny minority. If there is really a need for it, add an intersex category and stipulate that you must actually be the biological sex that you register with.
- viraptor 1y ago> They also ask for height, weight, hair/eye color, and race. If you want to identify someone like that, you're after whether they have male/female/androgynous looks, not their sex. Otherwise it's just a convenient shortcut that works most of the time. > identify your dead body, it would be critical to know your sex Fresh? Again, you're likely interested in male/female presenting. Sex assigned at birth can also be confusing here. It's really not simple for some people. > stipulate that you must actually be the biological sex that you register with "Biological sex" isn't a well defined thing. You'd have to start from what does it even mean. The ratio that doesn't fit in either category may be tiny, but country-wide it still covers millions of people.
- broken-kebab 1y agoIt's not shortcut for appearance, it's useful descriptor for overall physical information, and we (I mean all of us personally, and all societies, and all cultures) do build are relations differently in accordance with it. Including those who deny it.
- 1y ago
- throw_a_grenade 1y ago> But as a deeper question: why is gender even listed on a passport in the first place? Why does it matter for the thing a passport does, letting you pass through a port? There are certain rights that are afforded only to people of certain sex, ranging from relatively insignificant to very serious e.g. special arrangements needed for women in times of war (they need to be interned separately, if not part of thei families). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_persons#Women https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_persons#Women . Unless and until we dispense with sex-based rights, there is a need to accurately record person's sex in the identifying document.