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Agreed, Alex... but the Chrome team is not different. Nor is Edge. All three companies are willing to use all of their products for authoritarian control. The w

Agreed, Alex... but the Chrome team is not different. Nor is Edge. All three companies are willing to use all of their products for authoritarian control. The web platform feels no less captured than the app market.

slightlyoff 1y ago
[flagged]
- troupo 1y ago
  > It's something we create organically inside communities of shared democratic commitments (e.g., Blink) Blink is bot a "shared democratic community". As evidenced by the amount of Chrome-only APIs pushed into it. And you were very okay and completely silent about it while you worked there, and likely pushed quite a few of your own. Well, you're still fine with it as you call it "a community of democratic commitments".
  - slightlyoff 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - troupo 1y ago
      Yes, you post this every time as if that absolves Chrome, or you, of shipping "standards" against objections from both Mozilla and Apple, or before consensus on APIs and capabilities, or before even having a spec that others can implement. To quote your article: "every vendor always ships "whatever it wants." Indeed, and Chrome ships constantly, recklessly and with hardly a lip service to the standards process. Your article does have its funny moments. "Blink's rigorous launch process frequently prevents unvalidated designs from shipping". Lol. Lmao even. You, more than most other people, should know that once something is shipped, it stays in the platform forever, and it's very hard to change something that is already shipped. Yet not only Chrome ships features all the time, its team gleefully announced those features as fait accompli standards on web.dev, and then developers including you demand that other browsers implement these features.
      - slightlyoff 1y ago
        Let's try this again: was Apple wrong to ship Storage Access ahead of everyone else? https://caniuse.com/mdn-api_document_requeststorageaccess https://caniuse.com/mdn-api_document_requeststorageaccess In the world you want, how should leadership in designs manifest when there isn't consensus? Should nothing ship? And who does that help?
        troupo 1y ago
        Let's try this again: Chrome ships dozens of APIs that it then advertises as fait accompli standards. Often when there's even no consensus on the shape of an API. Or worse (see WebHID which Chrome shipped literally without an actionable spec). Did Safari ship requestStorageAccess in the same manner? If yes, yes it was wrong. It's not a trick question though you somehow think it is. Again, and it's insane that I have to explain it to you, of all people: once something is shipped in the browser, it stays there forever because people end up using and depending on that feature. And for the past decade that is exponentially "whatever Chrome ships". It's funny how you lament that Safari is somehow sabotaging standards processes when your former employer literally shits on the whole standards processes and just ships whatever it desires. Oh wait, in your mind it's good because "Blink has a rigorous process" (aka ship whatever our internal company turf wars need right now) and "Blink is a democratic process" (aka whatever Google decides ends up in the browser). > In the world you want, how should leadership in designs manifest when there isn't consensus? Ah yes. "Leadership". Justin Fangnani said it was "courage" when they shipped Constructible Stylesheets with no consensus on APIs and a trivially reproducible race condition in the spec just because Google-developed lit needed it. And then tried to gaslight everyone who didn't agree. It's not leadership. It's a monopoly (or near-monopoly) browser doing whatever the hell it wants with utter disregard to anything or anyone. Edit > Should nothing ship? And who does that help? Literally everyone. Many, many, many people have pointed it out on many occasions that just adding hundreds of new APIs per year to the platform doesn't much benefit the platform. Often you end up with badly designed badly specced APIs that need dozens of workarounds to fix while making the platform itself incomprehensibly complex. Quirks Blog said it better than me: https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/07/stop_pushing_th.html https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/07/stop_pushin... and https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_th... In your world "leadership" somehow means "ship whatever whenever at neck breaking pace ä, who cares about consequences". To quote Steve Jobs (whom you probably hate): "It means saying no to the hundred other good ideas that there are. You have to pick carefully... Innovation is saying no to 1,000 things.". Chrome's mottos seems to be "we don't take no for an answer, ship it"
panstromek 1y ago
It is very different. I develop and app that has iOS, Android and web version and iOS is by far the most problematic platform in this regard. Takes a few minutes to deploy a fresh web app. It takes a few weeks of being bullied by Apple to ship iOS app, and it's very miserable experience.
immibis 1y ago
All companies are authoritarian, and competition ensures they can't get very far. Unfortunately we've been dismantling competition for decades

slightlyoff 1y ago

[flagged]

troupo 1y ago
> It's something we create organically inside communities of shared democratic commitments (e.g., Blink) Blink is bot a "shared democratic community". As evidenced by the amount of Chrome-only APIs pushed into it. And you were very okay and completely silent about it while you worked there, and likely pushed quite a few of your own. Well, you're still fine with it as you call it "a community of democratic commitments".
- slightlyoff 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - troupo 1y ago
    Yes, you post this every time as if that absolves Chrome, or you, of shipping "standards" against objections from both Mozilla and Apple, or before consensus on APIs and capabilities, or before even having a spec that others can implement. To quote your article: "every vendor always ships "whatever it wants." Indeed, and Chrome ships constantly, recklessly and with hardly a lip service to the standards process. Your article does have its funny moments. "Blink's rigorous launch process frequently prevents unvalidated designs from shipping". Lol. Lmao even. You, more than most other people, should know that once something is shipped, it stays in the platform forever, and it's very hard to change something that is already shipped. Yet not only Chrome ships features all the time, its team gleefully announced those features as fait accompli standards on web.dev, and then developers including you demand that other browsers implement these features.
    - slightlyoff 1y ago
      Let's try this again: was Apple wrong to ship Storage Access ahead of everyone else? https://caniuse.com/mdn-api_document_requeststorageaccess https://caniuse.com/mdn-api_document_requeststorageaccess In the world you want, how should leadership in designs manifest when there isn't consensus? Should nothing ship? And who does that help?
      - troupo 1y ago
        Let's try this again: Chrome ships dozens of APIs that it then advertises as fait accompli standards. Often when there's even no consensus on the shape of an API. Or worse (see WebHID which Chrome shipped literally without an actionable spec). Did Safari ship requestStorageAccess in the same manner? If yes, yes it was wrong. It's not a trick question though you somehow think it is. Again, and it's insane that I have to explain it to you, of all people: once something is shipped in the browser, it stays there forever because people end up using and depending on that feature. And for the past decade that is exponentially "whatever Chrome ships". It's funny how you lament that Safari is somehow sabotaging standards processes when your former employer literally shits on the whole standards processes and just ships whatever it desires. Oh wait, in your mind it's good because "Blink has a rigorous process" (aka ship whatever our internal company turf wars need right now) and "Blink is a democratic process" (aka whatever Google decides ends up in the browser). > In the world you want, how should leadership in designs manifest when there isn't consensus? Ah yes. "Leadership". Justin Fangnani said it was "courage" when they shipped Constructible Stylesheets with no consensus on APIs and a trivially reproducible race condition in the spec just because Google-developed lit needed it. And then tried to gaslight everyone who didn't agree. It's not leadership. It's a monopoly (or near-monopoly) browser doing whatever the hell it wants with utter disregard to anything or anyone. Edit > Should nothing ship? And who does that help? Literally everyone. Many, many, many people have pointed it out on many occasions that just adding hundreds of new APIs per year to the platform doesn't much benefit the platform. Often you end up with badly designed badly specced APIs that need dozens of workarounds to fix while making the platform itself incomprehensibly complex. Quirks Blog said it better than me: https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/07/stop_pushing_th.html https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/07/stop_pushin... and https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_th... In your world "leadership" somehow means "ship whatever whenever at neck breaking pace ä, who cares about consequences". To quote Steve Jobs (whom you probably hate): "It means saying no to the hundred other good ideas that there are. You have to pick carefully... Innovation is saying no to 1,000 things.". Chrome's mottos seems to be "we don't take no for an answer, ship it"

panstromek 1y ago

It is very different. I develop and app that has iOS, Android and web version and iOS is by far the most problematic platform in this regard. Takes a few minutes to deploy a fresh web app. It takes a few weeks of being bullied by Apple to ship iOS app, and it's very miserable experience.

immibis 1y ago

All companies are authoritarian, and competition ensures they can't get very far. Unfortunately we've been dismantling competition for decades