7 ms·

Trans issues, etc are not something I spend an enormous amount of time thinking about. That said, something like 0.5% of humanity are hermaphrodites. It is odd

Trans issues, etc are not something I spend an enormous amount of time thinking about. That said, something like 0.5% of humanity are hermaphrodites. It is odd that such people no longer officially exist. I am also the sort of person who likes the confusion that conversation about gender causes people. Joel Spolsky popularized the term "leaky abstraction" in programming. It applies to most, if not all, of the categories we humans apply to the world. I see the war against "nonbinary" sex codes as a war against sophisticated thinking. It will make Americans a little bit dumber.

saubeidl 1y ago
> Trans issues, etc are not something I spend an enormous amount of time thinking about. I am not trans and not impacted by this in any way. Nonetheless, this worries me as trans people are just a small, convenient group to use to normalize state repression. "First they came for the trans people and I didn't speak out, because I wasn't trans"
- thomassmith65 1y ago
  You're right, of course, but considering how uncomfortable so many Americans are about these issues (eg: they may have decided the presidential election), I have mixed feelings about what to do about it.
  - djaboss 1y ago
    Perhaps continue to show those around you that the world is complex and that this is fine and no reason to be frightened? And fight for education which acknowledges the complexity of the world and teaches how to cope with it!
  - viraptor 1y ago
    As developers we get to question some things and simplify the systems a bit from time to time. Next time someone wants a "Title" field for a customer - why? Let's simplify, don't do that and avoid many issues. Same for gender/sex in any non-regulated situation. Same for trying to split "Full name" into any kind of culture-specific predefined fields. Or maybe don't ask for a name at all unless you're doing physical shipping. Etc.
  - grafmax 1y ago
    Feeding people to the lions in the hope that you can satisfy them is not the right call, morally or strategically. The list of targets has already expanded to include racial minorities, and it’s continuing to grow.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - thomassmith65 1y ago
      That is part of my mixed feelings. The other part is... Trump, for example, seemed to throw the generally unpopular Heritage Foundation to the lions. Once he regained power, he reversed course... "Trump Is No Longer Denying Support for Project 2025" https://time.com/7323278/trump-project-2025-government-shutdown https://time.com/7323278/trump-project-2025-government-shutd...
- heavyset_go 1y ago
  The President just declared that charities for the homeless, mutual aid groups, etc are terrorist organizations full of literal terrorists and people financing terrorism. Among those terrorists are people who dare to protest against his actions. You don't label people and organizations terrorists, probably the worst designation the post-9/11 US state can give anyone, unless you have plans to do something about them. Even Obama droned Americans to death that the state deemed were terrorists without trial. That, at the very least, should give you pause.
ben_w 1y ago
Since shortly after I graduated, I have been surprised by quite how many trans people I have known. So for me, I do spend a decent amount of time thinking about it. But as a deeper question: why is gender even listed on a passport in the first place? Why does it matter for the thing a passport does, letting you pass through a port? Picture: yes, is the person standing in front of me authorised to travel in general? Name: yes, is the person standing in front of me connected to this specific non-transferable ticket with a name on it? Gender: who cares, it's not like planes and trains have separate male and female seating and toilets.
- decremental 1y ago
  [dead]
- jojobas 1y ago
  Some trains do have separate male and female compartments.
  - setopt 1y ago
    Do they check passports to validate who goes where?
  - shevy-java 1y ago
    How is access controlled here? Surely not based on the passport right?
    - throw_a_grenade 1y ago
      Based on passport. If co-passenger complains, crew comes and demands travel document.
  - danaris 1y ago
    ...Are families forced to ride separately? What country is this, anyway? Y'know, so my wife and I can never ever go there.
viraptor 1y ago
> something like 0.5% of humanity are hermaphrodites If you're thinking ambiguous genitalia, the number is much lower. But other intersex characteristics are higher percentage.
vkou 1y ago
> I see the war against "nonbinary" sex codes as a war against sophisticated thinking. It's not. It's a war against people who don't confirm to traditional gender roles, regardless of whether they are trans, gay, or just a square peg that doesn't fit in the round hole. Think for a moment about what happens when a visibly trans person uses a washroom that matches their assigned-at-birth gender. The exact same people who freak out over trans people using a bathroom that matches their transitioned-to gender, and who got those laws passed, lose their shit when they see a female-to-male trans person with a 5-o'clock shadow walking into the ladies' washroom.
- deleted 1y ago
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shevy-java 1y ago
Yes but even without hermaphrodites, to have a binary field with "M" or "F" is strange. There should be a third one such as "I don't care". Some people actually choose this option without being trans, and I can understand why - it is a totally pointless and outdated field.
danaris 1y ago
From what I understand, among the intersex community, "hermaphrodite" is generally considered a slur. The term a) implies things that are not true of them (that they have multiple sets of functional genitalia), and b) is often used to fetishize them for that reason. Frankly, there isn't really a good reason that we should have a gender marker on our passports. The picture should be enough for any agent trying to visually identify us, and until and unless we can get to a world where every country is fully accepting of trans (and intersex) people, having a gender marker there forces them to make a choice between using a marker that does not match their gender identity (and thus may very well give them dysphoria), or using a marker that makes them a target for transphobic officials. (This is all true of drivers' licenses, too.)
jacquesm 1y ago
> It is odd that such people no longer officially exist. They do in other countries.

saubeidl 1y ago

> Trans issues, etc are not something I spend an enormous amount of time thinking about. I am not trans and not impacted by this in any way. Nonetheless, this worries me as trans people are just a small, convenient group to use to normalize state repression. "First they came for the trans people and I didn't speak out, because I wasn't trans"

thomassmith65 1y ago
You're right, of course, but considering how uncomfortable so many Americans are about these issues (eg: they may have decided the presidential election), I have mixed feelings about what to do about it.
- djaboss 1y ago
  Perhaps continue to show those around you that the world is complex and that this is fine and no reason to be frightened? And fight for education which acknowledges the complexity of the world and teaches how to cope with it!
- viraptor 1y ago
  As developers we get to question some things and simplify the systems a bit from time to time. Next time someone wants a "Title" field for a customer - why? Let's simplify, don't do that and avoid many issues. Same for gender/sex in any non-regulated situation. Same for trying to split "Full name" into any kind of culture-specific predefined fields. Or maybe don't ask for a name at all unless you're doing physical shipping. Etc.
- grafmax 1y ago
  Feeding people to the lions in the hope that you can satisfy them is not the right call, morally or strategically. The list of targets has already expanded to include racial minorities, and it’s continuing to grow.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - thomassmith65 1y ago
    That is part of my mixed feelings. The other part is... Trump, for example, seemed to throw the generally unpopular Heritage Foundation to the lions. Once he regained power, he reversed course... "Trump Is No Longer Denying Support for Project 2025" https://time.com/7323278/trump-project-2025-government-shutdown https://time.com/7323278/trump-project-2025-government-shutd...
heavyset_go 1y ago
The President just declared that charities for the homeless, mutual aid groups, etc are terrorist organizations full of literal terrorists and people financing terrorism. Among those terrorists are people who dare to protest against his actions. You don't label people and organizations terrorists, probably the worst designation the post-9/11 US state can give anyone, unless you have plans to do something about them. Even Obama droned Americans to death that the state deemed were terrorists without trial. That, at the very least, should give you pause.

ben_w 1y ago

Since shortly after I graduated, I have been surprised by quite how many trans people I have known. So for me, I do spend a decent amount of time thinking about it. But as a deeper question: why is gender even listed on a passport in the first place? Why does it matter for the thing a passport does, letting you pass through a port? Picture: yes, is the person standing in front of me authorised to travel in general? Name: yes, is the person standing in front of me connected to this specific non-transferable ticket with a name on it? Gender: who cares, it's not like planes and trains have separate male and female seating and toilets.

decremental 1y ago
[dead]
jojobas 1y ago
Some trains do have separate male and female compartments.
- setopt 1y ago
  Do they check passports to validate who goes where?
- shevy-java 1y ago
  How is access controlled here? Surely not based on the passport right?
  - throw_a_grenade 1y ago
    Based on passport. If co-passenger complains, crew comes and demands travel document.
- danaris 1y ago
  ...Are families forced to ride separately? What country is this, anyway? Y'know, so my wife and I can never ever go there.

viraptor 1y ago

> something like 0.5% of humanity are hermaphrodites If you're thinking ambiguous genitalia, the number is much lower. But other intersex characteristics are higher percentage.

vkou 1y ago

> I see the war against "nonbinary" sex codes as a war against sophisticated thinking. It's not. It's a war against people who don't confirm to traditional gender roles, regardless of whether they are trans, gay, or just a square peg that doesn't fit in the round hole. Think for a moment about what happens when a visibly trans person uses a washroom that matches their assigned-at-birth gender. The exact same people who freak out over trans people using a bathroom that matches their transitioned-to gender, and who got those laws passed, lose their shit when they see a female-to-male trans person with a 5-o'clock shadow walking into the ladies' washroom.

deleted 1y ago
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deleted 1y ago
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deleted 1y ago
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shevy-java 1y ago

Yes but even without hermaphrodites, to have a binary field with "M" or "F" is strange. There should be a third one such as "I don't care". Some people actually choose this option without being trans, and I can understand why - it is a totally pointless and outdated field.

danaris 1y ago

From what I understand, among the intersex community, "hermaphrodite" is generally considered a slur. The term a) implies things that are not true of them (that they have multiple sets of functional genitalia), and b) is often used to fetishize them for that reason. Frankly, there isn't really a good reason that we should have a gender marker on our passports. The picture should be enough for any agent trying to visually identify us, and until and unless we can get to a world where every country is fully accepting of trans (and intersex) people, having a gender marker there forces them to make a choice between using a marker that does not match their gender identity (and thus may very well give them dysphoria), or using a marker that makes them a target for transphobic officials. (This is all true of drivers' licenses, too.)

jacquesm 1y ago

> It is odd that such people no longer officially exist. They do in other countries.