4 ms·

This is a distinction without a difference. "Regressive", "reactionary", and "conservative" are three words that refer to the exact same people and mean the ex

This is a distinction without a difference. "Regressive", "reactionary", and "conservative" are three words that refer to the exact same people and mean the exact same thing.

mindslight 1y ago
No, the words mean different things. When used to refer to a group, those meanings confer connotations. The point is that we need to stop referring to people destroying our society as "conservative".
- zzzeek 1y ago
  why do we need to do that? Which of the two political parties in the US is known as "conservative"? What does that party look like now? What policies are being pursued by that party's elected officials, and how much do they differ in concept from what that same party was doing ten years ago, twenty years ago, fifty years ago? The Southern Strategy, Reagan's speech at Neshoba county fair, "Starve the Beast", "Brownie you're doing a heckuva job", you can draw a straight line all the way through to today. we're living in the utter pinnacle of unfettered conservatism today.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    Try painting with a less broad brush. I agree that we're experiencing the endgame of the Republican political operatives scorched-earth divisive tactics, but to insist on tying all their latent supporters to that is a grave mistake. Imagine for a minute, if you will, that there are reasonable people who believe in some conservative values, but don't examine the rest of the party platform (or its results) all too hard. Now imagine that by pointing out where Trump falls short or is even directly opposed to those values (eg 2nd amendment), you might actually make them come around to seeing that we need to oust this autocratic child-raping anti-American scumbag. That would be a good thing, right? I do get that Trump is just the tip of the Party's spear, and the whole pantheon of corrupt congresscritters / supreme council members / corporate backers really needs to go down with the ship. But that didn't work for 2024, and I'd say at this point we're losing our society and our country faster at a faster rate that those enablers' reputations are being damaged, so that seems like a terrible strategy. First and foremost, we need to stop the hemorrhaging.
    - zzzeek 1y ago
      i live in a town full of Republicans. Some are more soft spoken than others, but to claim that any of them are not MAGA (which would mean they actually did not vote for Trump) is simply ridiculous. the "non-MAGA republican" is basically a few hundred famous podcast hosts who were ejected from the power they had under the Bush regime. That's pretty much it.
      - mindslight 1y ago
        > but to claim that any of them are not MAGA > (which would mean they actually did not vote for Trump) There is a difference between these two things, no? I've talked to people who voted for Trump subsequently regretted it after they saw what he is actually doing. Low. Information. Voters. Our goal should be to leverage this difference. It's self-defeating to simply assume everyone that voted for Trump in 2024 continues to support cozying up to middle eastern autocrats, covering up the Epstein case, bully pulpit led cryptocurrency fraud, middle of the night raids on entire apartment buildings, deploying National Guards to occupy American cities and attack protestors, deliberately inhumane treatment of deportees while mostly letting businesses continue on as usual, etc. Or even that they support things that Trump did in his first term, like attacking the second amendment (eg his leadership around Kenneth Walker / Breonna Taylor). Of course some of these topics are more subtle and lend themselves to propaganda bubbles. Like dwelling on the concentration camps probably isn't the best idea, since it's so easy to shut off one's empathy. But these are the angles of engagement we need to be looking for - unless we're just going to watch our Constitutional Republic being destroyed for four years, while hoping there might be some pieces left to pick up at the end.
        Bratmon 1y ago
        > It's self-defeating to simply assume everyone that voted for Trump in 2024 continues to support cozying up to middle eastern autocrats, covering up the Epstein case, bully pulpit led cryptocurrency fraud, middle of the night raids on entire apartment buildings, deploying National Guards to occupy American cities and attack protestors, deliberately inhumane treatment of deportees while mostly letting businesses continue on as usual, etc. Is there any evidence that there is any significant group of people who voted for Trump but are opposed to any of those things? Because the evidence I've seen suggests that each of those things increased support for Trump anong his base, and the only open question is "By how much?"
- rsynnott 1y ago
  Words mean what they are used to mean. In a political context, "conservative" has had _many_ meanings over the past few centuries.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    Sure, and so has "democratic" - eg DPRK. That doesn't mean we shouldn't call out abuse of the term when it's used for something decidedly anti-democratic. And "democratic" is at least a purely political word, whereas "conservative" has a strong meaning outside of politics.
heavyset_go 1y ago
Reactionary movements can be paradoxically revolutionary in their means, aspirations and intended outcomes, and sticking to the academic definition of conservatism, the word doesn't accurately describe all of them. But yes, in general, I agree with your point, in a colloquial sense, the Venn diagram is usually a circle.

This is a distinction without a difference. "Regressive", "reactionary", and "conservative" are three words that refer to the exact same people and mean the exact same thing.

mindslight 1y ago

No, the words mean different things. When used to refer to a group, those meanings confer connotations. The point is that we need to stop referring to people destroying our society as "conservative".

zzzeek 1y ago
why do we need to do that? Which of the two political parties in the US is known as "conservative"? What does that party look like now? What policies are being pursued by that party's elected officials, and how much do they differ in concept from what that same party was doing ten years ago, twenty years ago, fifty years ago? The Southern Strategy, Reagan's speech at Neshoba county fair, "Starve the Beast", "Brownie you're doing a heckuva job", you can draw a straight line all the way through to today. we're living in the utter pinnacle of unfettered conservatism today.
- mindslight 1y ago
  Try painting with a less broad brush. I agree that we're experiencing the endgame of the Republican political operatives scorched-earth divisive tactics, but to insist on tying all their latent supporters to that is a grave mistake. Imagine for a minute, if you will, that there are reasonable people who believe in some conservative values, but don't examine the rest of the party platform (or its results) all too hard. Now imagine that by pointing out where Trump falls short or is even directly opposed to those values (eg 2nd amendment), you might actually make them come around to seeing that we need to oust this autocratic child-raping anti-American scumbag. That would be a good thing, right? I do get that Trump is just the tip of the Party's spear, and the whole pantheon of corrupt congresscritters / supreme council members / corporate backers really needs to go down with the ship. But that didn't work for 2024, and I'd say at this point we're losing our society and our country faster at a faster rate that those enablers' reputations are being damaged, so that seems like a terrible strategy. First and foremost, we need to stop the hemorrhaging.
  - zzzeek 1y ago
    i live in a town full of Republicans. Some are more soft spoken than others, but to claim that any of them are not MAGA (which would mean they actually did not vote for Trump) is simply ridiculous. the "non-MAGA republican" is basically a few hundred famous podcast hosts who were ejected from the power they had under the Bush regime. That's pretty much it.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      > but to claim that any of them are not MAGA > (which would mean they actually did not vote for Trump) There is a difference between these two things, no? I've talked to people who voted for Trump subsequently regretted it after they saw what he is actually doing. Low. Information. Voters. Our goal should be to leverage this difference. It's self-defeating to simply assume everyone that voted for Trump in 2024 continues to support cozying up to middle eastern autocrats, covering up the Epstein case, bully pulpit led cryptocurrency fraud, middle of the night raids on entire apartment buildings, deploying National Guards to occupy American cities and attack protestors, deliberately inhumane treatment of deportees while mostly letting businesses continue on as usual, etc. Or even that they support things that Trump did in his first term, like attacking the second amendment (eg his leadership around Kenneth Walker / Breonna Taylor). Of course some of these topics are more subtle and lend themselves to propaganda bubbles. Like dwelling on the concentration camps probably isn't the best idea, since it's so easy to shut off one's empathy. But these are the angles of engagement we need to be looking for - unless we're just going to watch our Constitutional Republic being destroyed for four years, while hoping there might be some pieces left to pick up at the end.
      - Bratmon 1y ago
        > It's self-defeating to simply assume everyone that voted for Trump in 2024 continues to support cozying up to middle eastern autocrats, covering up the Epstein case, bully pulpit led cryptocurrency fraud, middle of the night raids on entire apartment buildings, deploying National Guards to occupy American cities and attack protestors, deliberately inhumane treatment of deportees while mostly letting businesses continue on as usual, etc. Is there any evidence that there is any significant group of people who voted for Trump but are opposed to any of those things? Because the evidence I've seen suggests that each of those things increased support for Trump anong his base, and the only open question is "By how much?"
rsynnott 1y ago
Words mean what they are used to mean. In a political context, "conservative" has had _many_ meanings over the past few centuries.
- mindslight 1y ago
  Sure, and so has "democratic" - eg DPRK. That doesn't mean we shouldn't call out abuse of the term when it's used for something decidedly anti-democratic. And "democratic" is at least a purely political word, whereas "conservative" has a strong meaning outside of politics.

heavyset_go 1y ago

Reactionary movements can be paradoxically revolutionary in their means, aspirations and intended outcomes, and sticking to the academic definition of conservatism, the word doesn't accurately describe all of them. But yes, in general, I agree with your point, in a colloquial sense, the Venn diagram is usually a circle.