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I’ve had a lot of people suffer in my life from health conditions, ranging from mental illness, heart disease, and cancer. And I’ve had to take care of them all

by Noaidi 1y ago

I’ve had a lot of people suffer in my life from health conditions, ranging from mental illness, heart disease, and cancer. And I’ve had to take care of them all at different times. Did I consider this a burden or a gift? Oh, it was hard, but does that mean it’s a burden? If you think you’ll be a burden on your loved ones can we really say they’re your loved ones? This is a serious question. If you’re thinking that you’ll be a burden do you think that these people really love you? At least I would want to let them use experimental drugs, or do anything to further the cause of curing Alzheimer’s. But again, this is all far from the original article about an old man who decided to die because well, we don’t really know, he just didn’t see the point of living anymore.

saltcured 1y ago
As a caregiver and survivor to family members with mental illness and dementia, yes I would say that someone can be a loved one and a burden. These aren't places on a single dimension, but totally different dimensions that can mix in amazing and terrible ways.
tsimionescu 1y ago
Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? The reality of it is that a person who suffers from this is simply not the person you knew, by any measurable definition. They don't remember you, they may well fear and hate you. They change moods at a moment's notice, they live in a state of either lethargy or accute anxiety, suddenly waking up in a place that they don't recognize or remember ever living in, nor remembering how they got there. Their life essentially becomes a series of TikTok reels in which they are the main actor, or a vivid dream. Not only are they not the same "self" that you loved, they are usually not even a coherent "self" beyond a few tens of minutes. And, just to make everything as heartwrenching as possible, in this series of short reels their mind is swiping through, they occasionally become the person you had loved, for some minutes. And you know that these moments will never get more common, only rarer, but you can't help but think that they're "still in there". It is my firm belief that any sense of "me" would be long dead by this time. Keeping my body and scraps of my consciousness alive only to torment my loved ones, caregivers, and neighbors would be a cruelty that would serve no purpose. I hope that I don't ever have to make this choice, but I also hope that, if I am ever diagnosed, I will have the chance to make this choice and avoid such suffering.
- Noaidi 1y ago
  > Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? Yes. Did I say that it was easy? Did I say that the spiritual way through all this was just pretending like everything is OK? No, it’s a very difficult process. Avoiding suffering is impossible. Choosing to die to avoid suffering does not guarantee non-suffering. Only understanding suffering and where it originates can get rid of suffering, and you don’t do that by avoiding it.
  - tsimionescu 1y ago
    You are not replying to my core point. Do you believe that a person with severe late stage Alzheimer is the same person they were before the disease reached that point? Do you believe that their old mind and personality still exists at that point? If so, why? For many other neuro-psychiatric diseases, we know that moments of psychosis are reversible, at least to some extent, with drugs and therapy and the kindness of others. The same is manifestly not true, tragically, for dementia: everything lost is gone forever.
    - whatever1 1y ago
      By the way dementia etc throw a wrench in the concepts of consciousness, afterlife etc. A person with late state Alzheimer's, are they conscious? Do they still have "spirit" ψυχή? Is it the same person, or the person moved on? Are they human anymore? Sorry I have no answers.
    - Noaidi 1y ago
      You are not the same person you were when you were nine years old are you? Literally all your cells that you had then are gone and replaced. You’ve also had new experiences and that’s changed self-concept as well. We are not one continuous person that something like Alzheimer suddenly changes. It’s because we associate so much with our experience as memories that makes us think that that is what we are. Are people with Alzheimer’s the same person? No, they’re different people. This is why we’re not allowed to just go around killing people with Alzheimer’s and dementia. The thing that makes us alive is the constant change and activity in the body. If you say, someone does not change, that someone is the same throughout their whole life. That amounts to calling something dead, still, unchanging, lifeless. These people with dementia, they still have a personality don’t they? I know my friend’s mother does. And my friends, father who died a few months back with Alzheimer’s. Yes, he was angry and had outbursts that were 100% uncharacteristically not like his old behavior. But behavior does not dictate who you are is signals that we still have a consciousness. And that is who we are. We are not our memories. We are not our current form of expression. We are our consciousness. Because our consciousness loses the function of accessing memories does not make us any more us. You are not your memory. You are consciousness. You are the thing that reads memories. But again, this drifted so far from the point of the article. This man killed himself not for his current suffering, but for his perceived future suffering. He was afraid of change he was afraid of what that change meant. He wanted people to see the same dead person That people saw him in life. A constant unchanging perception.
jncfhnb 1y ago
> If you think you’ll be a burden on your loved ones can we really say they’re your loved ones? This is a serious question. If you’re thinking that you’ll be a burden do you think that these people really love you? I think it’s a pretty fuckin dumb question. Gatekeeping “love” behind service of ceaseless emotional toil with a smile is ridiculous.
robotresearcher 1y ago
Good lord, we have very different interpretations of ‘burden’. I had healthy, happy, typical children that I loved to bits and they were absolutely a burden! Some days I could barely deal. Acknowledging that the things you love are a huge pain in the ass sometimes and keeping on loving them is perfectly healthy.
- Noaidi 1y ago
  A burden is a heavy load. The stronger you are the less things are a burden to you. In this case, if you are more spiritually strong you are, the fewer burdens you will have.
  - lazyasciiart 1y ago
    Spiritual strength is the ability to be a smug jerk to others because you think you’re better than them. It certainly is a coping mechanism for some people, but it’s hardly one that should be encouraged.
    - Noaidi 1y ago
      I’ve been nothing but nice on this comment thread. If you disagree with me but can’t gather the words to explain yourself It’s no reason to call me a name for your lack of vocabulary or understanding.
      - robotresearcher 1y ago
        In this case, if you are more spiritually strong you are, the less ability to absorb feedback on your communication style you will have.
      - lazyasciiart 1y ago
        If you think it's "nice" suggesting to people that their close family must not love them, and they must not adequately love the close family that they cared for, then I recommend you don't be "nice".
prmoustache 1y ago
> If you’re thinking that you’ll be a burden do you think that these people really love you? These are not mutually exclusive.

by Noaidi 1y ago

saltcured 1y ago

As a caregiver and survivor to family members with mental illness and dementia, yes I would say that someone can be a loved one and a burden. These aren't places on a single dimension, but totally different dimensions that can mix in amazing and terrible ways.

tsimionescu 1y ago

Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? The reality of it is that a person who suffers from this is simply not the person you knew, by any measurable definition. They don't remember you, they may well fear and hate you. They change moods at a moment's notice, they live in a state of either lethargy or accute anxiety, suddenly waking up in a place that they don't recognize or remember ever living in, nor remembering how they got there. Their life essentially becomes a series of TikTok reels in which they are the main actor, or a vivid dream. Not only are they not the same "self" that you loved, they are usually not even a coherent "self" beyond a few tens of minutes. And, just to make everything as heartwrenching as possible, in this series of short reels their mind is swiping through, they occasionally become the person you had loved, for some minutes. And you know that these moments will never get more common, only rarer, but you can't help but think that they're "still in there". It is my firm belief that any sense of "me" would be long dead by this time. Keeping my body and scraps of my consciousness alive only to torment my loved ones, caregivers, and neighbors would be a cruelty that would serve no purpose. I hope that I don't ever have to make this choice, but I also hope that, if I am ever diagnosed, I will have the chance to make this choice and avoid such suffering.

Noaidi 1y ago
> Have you ever cared for someone with late stage Alzheimer or other forms of severe dementia? Yes. Did I say that it was easy? Did I say that the spiritual way through all this was just pretending like everything is OK? No, it’s a very difficult process. Avoiding suffering is impossible. Choosing to die to avoid suffering does not guarantee non-suffering. Only understanding suffering and where it originates can get rid of suffering, and you don’t do that by avoiding it.
- tsimionescu 1y ago
  You are not replying to my core point. Do you believe that a person with severe late stage Alzheimer is the same person they were before the disease reached that point? Do you believe that their old mind and personality still exists at that point? If so, why? For many other neuro-psychiatric diseases, we know that moments of psychosis are reversible, at least to some extent, with drugs and therapy and the kindness of others. The same is manifestly not true, tragically, for dementia: everything lost is gone forever.
  - whatever1 1y ago
    By the way dementia etc throw a wrench in the concepts of consciousness, afterlife etc. A person with late state Alzheimer's, are they conscious? Do they still have "spirit" ψυχή? Is it the same person, or the person moved on? Are they human anymore? Sorry I have no answers.
  - Noaidi 1y ago
    You are not the same person you were when you were nine years old are you? Literally all your cells that you had then are gone and replaced. You’ve also had new experiences and that’s changed self-concept as well. We are not one continuous person that something like Alzheimer suddenly changes. It’s because we associate so much with our experience as memories that makes us think that that is what we are. Are people with Alzheimer’s the same person? No, they’re different people. This is why we’re not allowed to just go around killing people with Alzheimer’s and dementia. The thing that makes us alive is the constant change and activity in the body. If you say, someone does not change, that someone is the same throughout their whole life. That amounts to calling something dead, still, unchanging, lifeless. These people with dementia, they still have a personality don’t they? I know my friend’s mother does. And my friends, father who died a few months back with Alzheimer’s. Yes, he was angry and had outbursts that were 100% uncharacteristically not like his old behavior. But behavior does not dictate who you are is signals that we still have a consciousness. And that is who we are. We are not our memories. We are not our current form of expression. We are our consciousness. Because our consciousness loses the function of accessing memories does not make us any more us. You are not your memory. You are consciousness. You are the thing that reads memories. But again, this drifted so far from the point of the article. This man killed himself not for his current suffering, but for his perceived future suffering. He was afraid of change he was afraid of what that change meant. He wanted people to see the same dead person That people saw him in life. A constant unchanging perception.

jncfhnb 1y ago

> If you think you’ll be a burden on your loved ones can we really say they’re your loved ones? This is a serious question. If you’re thinking that you’ll be a burden do you think that these people really love you? I think it’s a pretty fuckin dumb question. Gatekeeping “love” behind service of ceaseless emotional toil with a smile is ridiculous.

robotresearcher 1y ago

Good lord, we have very different interpretations of ‘burden’. I had healthy, happy, typical children that I loved to bits and they were absolutely a burden! Some days I could barely deal. Acknowledging that the things you love are a huge pain in the ass sometimes and keeping on loving them is perfectly healthy.

Noaidi 1y ago
A burden is a heavy load. The stronger you are the less things are a burden to you. In this case, if you are more spiritually strong you are, the fewer burdens you will have.
- lazyasciiart 1y ago
  Spiritual strength is the ability to be a smug jerk to others because you think you’re better than them. It certainly is a coping mechanism for some people, but it’s hardly one that should be encouraged.
  - Noaidi 1y ago
    I’ve been nothing but nice on this comment thread. If you disagree with me but can’t gather the words to explain yourself It’s no reason to call me a name for your lack of vocabulary or understanding.
    - robotresearcher 1y ago
      In this case, if you are more spiritually strong you are, the less ability to absorb feedback on your communication style you will have.
    - lazyasciiart 1y ago
      If you think it's "nice" suggesting to people that their close family must not love them, and they must not adequately love the close family that they cared for, then I recommend you don't be "nice".

prmoustache 1y ago

> If you’re thinking that you’ll be a burden do you think that these people really love you? These are not mutually exclusive.