6 ms·

It's also due to browser not doing anything useful with the additional tags, if I use <article>, <section> or <div> doesn't make any difference, my browser does

It's also due to browser not doing anything useful with the additional tags, if I use <article>, <section> or <div> doesn't make any difference, my browser doesn't use that to generate a TOC or let me open an <article> in a new Tab. Even the, in theory, incredible useful <time> tag seems to be completely invisible to my browser and many other potentialy useful tags don't exist in the first place (e.g. <unit> would be useful).

1718627440 1y ago
Yes, I think that is what browser should spend money on instead of inventing new syntax. Google Chrome still doesn't support alternate stylesheets. But I refuse to not use them simply because a rich company can't be bothered to implement decades old standards.
kitd 1y ago
Maybe not the browser itself, but in combination with semantic CSS [1], it's incredibly useful. [1] - eg https://picocss.com/ https://picocss.com/
threatofrain 1y ago
We just don't have enough tags that we can really take advantage of on a semantic or programmatic level, and that has lead to other tags getting overloaded and thus losing meaning. Why don't we just have markup for a table of contents in 2025?
- fleebee 1y ago
  That'd open a whole new can of worms. Browsers are already gargantuan pieces of software even with the relatively primitive tags we have today. We don't need to further argue with each other what the <toc> tag should look and behave like, deal with unforeseen edge cases and someone's special use cases which end up requiring them to implement the whole thing with <ol>s and <li>s anyway.
  - threatofrain 1y ago
    Then let the edge cases use <ol> and <li>, and in some sense all those website style simplifiers that comes built-in with Safari will just have to deal with those edge cases. Similarly we have a built-in date picker, and if you don't think it's good enough then build a better one.
sodapopcan 1y ago
> It's also due to browser not doing anything useful with the additional tags, It's clear that you are sighted and never use reader mode.
- crabmusket 1y ago
  Exactly this. I really wish browsers would use semantic html to make content more accessible for me, a sighted user! Why does my browser not give me a table of contents I can use to navigate a long page? I think the parent has a good point: browsers don't do anything with these tags for sighted users, who are unfortunately the majority of developers. If they were to notice benefits to using semantic tags, maybe they'd use them more often.
  - wwweston 1y ago
    Developers of all people should be in a position to notice how tag semantics can keep them oriented in a document or target behavior and styling…
- ninkendo 1y ago
  It’s interesting, because if you imagine sites actually using these tags to be maximally compatible with reader mode and other accessibility modes, they’re setting themselves up perfectly to be viewed without ads. I use reader mode by default in Safari because it’s essentially the ultimate ad blocker: it throws the whole site away and just shows me the article I want to read. But this is in opposition to what the website owners want, which is to thwart reader mode and stuff as many ads in my way as they can. It’s possible good accessibility is antithetical to the ad-driven web. It’s no wonder sites don’t bother with it.
- sefrost 1y ago
  Reader mode seems to still work if you have a div with article text in it. I would be interested to see a comparison of what works and what doesn’t if such a reference exists though!
  - 1y ago
cluckindan 1y ago
Not true. Using semantic HTML and relying on its implicit ARIA roles allows the browser to construct an accurate AOM tree (Accessibility Object Model) which makes it possible for screen readers and other human interface software to create TOCs and other landmark-based navigation.
- lelanthran 1y ago
  > Not true. Using semantic HTML and relying on its implicit ARIA roles allows the browser to construct an accurate AOM tree (Accessibility Object Model) which makes it possible for screen readers and other human interface software to create TOCs and other landmark-based navigation. Sure, it allows the browser to do that. GP is complaining that even though browsers are allowed to do all that, they typically don't.
  - Vinnl 1y ago
    The point of the reply was that they actually do. It's just not obvious that they do if you don't use that method yourself.
runarberg 1y ago
If you want a specific behavior for <time> then write a browser plugin which e.g. converts the <time> content to your local time. But if you are a developer you should see value in <article> and <section> keeping your markup much much nicer which in turn should make your tests much easier to write.

1718627440 1y ago

Yes, I think that is what browser should spend money on instead of inventing new syntax. Google Chrome still doesn't support alternate stylesheets. But I refuse to not use them simply because a rich company can't be bothered to implement decades old standards.

kitd 1y ago

Maybe not the browser itself, but in combination with semantic CSS [1], it's incredibly useful. [1] - eg https://picocss.com/ https://picocss.com/

threatofrain 1y ago

We just don't have enough tags that we can really take advantage of on a semantic or programmatic level, and that has lead to other tags getting overloaded and thus losing meaning. Why don't we just have markup for a table of contents in 2025?

fleebee 1y ago
That'd open a whole new can of worms. Browsers are already gargantuan pieces of software even with the relatively primitive tags we have today. We don't need to further argue with each other what the <toc> tag should look and behave like, deal with unforeseen edge cases and someone's special use cases which end up requiring them to implement the whole thing with <ol>s and <li>s anyway.
- threatofrain 1y ago
  Then let the edge cases use <ol> and <li>, and in some sense all those website style simplifiers that comes built-in with Safari will just have to deal with those edge cases. Similarly we have a built-in date picker, and if you don't think it's good enough then build a better one.

sodapopcan 1y ago

> It's also due to browser not doing anything useful with the additional tags, It's clear that you are sighted and never use reader mode.

crabmusket 1y ago
Exactly this. I really wish browsers would use semantic html to make content more accessible for me, a sighted user! Why does my browser not give me a table of contents I can use to navigate a long page? I think the parent has a good point: browsers don't do anything with these tags for sighted users, who are unfortunately the majority of developers. If they were to notice benefits to using semantic tags, maybe they'd use them more often.
- wwweston 1y ago
  Developers of all people should be in a position to notice how tag semantics can keep them oriented in a document or target behavior and styling…
ninkendo 1y ago
It’s interesting, because if you imagine sites actually using these tags to be maximally compatible with reader mode and other accessibility modes, they’re setting themselves up perfectly to be viewed without ads. I use reader mode by default in Safari because it’s essentially the ultimate ad blocker: it throws the whole site away and just shows me the article I want to read. But this is in opposition to what the website owners want, which is to thwart reader mode and stuff as many ads in my way as they can. It’s possible good accessibility is antithetical to the ad-driven web. It’s no wonder sites don’t bother with it.
sefrost 1y ago
Reader mode seems to still work if you have a div with article text in it. I would be interested to see a comparison of what works and what doesn’t if such a reference exists though!
- 1y ago

cluckindan 1y ago

Not true. Using semantic HTML and relying on its implicit ARIA roles allows the browser to construct an accurate AOM tree (Accessibility Object Model) which makes it possible for screen readers and other human interface software to create TOCs and other landmark-based navigation.

lelanthran 1y ago
> Not true. Using semantic HTML and relying on its implicit ARIA roles allows the browser to construct an accurate AOM tree (Accessibility Object Model) which makes it possible for screen readers and other human interface software to create TOCs and other landmark-based navigation. Sure, it allows the browser to do that. GP is complaining that even though browsers are allowed to do all that, they typically don't.
- Vinnl 1y ago
  The point of the reply was that they actually do. It's just not obvious that they do if you don't use that method yourself.

runarberg 1y ago

If you want a specific behavior for <time> then write a browser plugin which e.g. converts the <time> content to your local time. But if you are a developer you should see value in <article> and <section> keeping your markup much much nicer which in turn should make your tests much easier to write.