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Toyota’s strategy for the last many years: “We’re going to release a breakthrough EV in the kind of near future. Don’t buy an EV now” (instead keep buying our

Toyota’s strategy for the last many years: “We’re going to release a breakthrough EV in the kind of near future. Don’t buy an EV now” (instead keep buying our ICE vehicles!) Getting very old at this point.

carabiner 1y ago
And it was the correct strategy: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/09/business/toyotas-hybrid-electric-vehicles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/09/business/toyotas-hybrid-e... The best selling vehicle in the US is the RAV4, and not any EV.
- AtlasBarfed 1y ago
  The correct strategy would have been to basically within 10 years of the release of the insight and the Prius, to mandate hybrid electric vehicles for all consumer vehicles, and 20 years after they, phevs. You may be technically right because our policy is idiotic, and the chances of this happening unde the bush administration was zero. But don't pretend this is some optimal engineering formula you've reduced in an economic journal.
  - kulahan 1y ago
    Similarly, you should not pretend this strategy you've posted above is some optimal engineering formula you've reduced in an economic journal. There are many roadblocks to consider before mandating all vehicles go electric, not least among them being an electrical grid which simply cannot handle this level of energy, a lack of access to enough lithium, or tax considerations for vehicles no longer contributing to highways (while creating an order of magnitude more damage) because they don't buy gas.
    - lern_too_spel 1y ago
      You didn't address GP's proposed policy. Hybrids and PHEVs need a lot less lithium than full EVs. The electrical grid can already handle off peak charging of many more EVs than are on the road today. It's straightforward to replace gasoline taxes with electricity taxes and car registration fees, which could also vary by weight, but many states are going further and implementing road usage fees, which can be done by reporting odometer readings.
      - kulahan 1y ago
        They do need a lot less lithium, but we have like 300M cars in the US and only 4M EVs, so unless it's using, like, an ounce of lithium, you'll still have massive sourcing problems. It's also not straightforward (in the US at least) to replace gas taxes with electricity taxes. Electricity is a utility, while gasoline is a good. You can tax goods very easily. Taxing utilities, especially when it comes to "I'm only taxing THIS type of electricity tax" directly violates utility carrier regulations. We had a whole argument over net neutrality, and the foundation of the argument was literally "could you imagine if we charged electricity this way??" So maybe you could do it with registration fees, but that's going to be MUCH harder on lower-income people. It's simple to pay a $.15 tax on your gas tank. It's very difficult to pay an extra $75 on your registration.
        AtlasBarfed 1y ago
        The Prius was lead acod. Phevs are not a massive draw. You're throwing out the EV fud list straight from the oil companies. You either don't understand hybrid vs Phev vs EV or are being mendacious
        kulahan 1y ago
        No, I'm just showing it's not an economic journal-level idea
breve 1y ago
Toyota's main strategy is to sell cars. They sell the most cars of any automaker. Toyota had record sales of 11.2 million in 2023. They're on track to set another sales record in 2025: https://www.autoblog.com/news/nearly-900000-cars-sold-toyotas-record-july-proves-strategy-works https://www.autoblog.com/news/nearly-900000-cars-sold-toyota...
- testing22321 1y ago
  While delaying the uptake of EVs.
  - breve 1y ago
    No, by simply understanding the car market. Toyota's in the car business. They sell cars.
    - testing22321 1y ago
      So why all the announcements since 2017 about their revolutionary battery coming soon (tm) It was to stop people buying other EVs.
      - breve 1y ago
        No, it's because they're developing solid state batteries. They're also developing hydrogen fuel cell drive trains. They're even trying hydrogen combustion: https://www.toyota-europe.com/news/2022/prototype-corolla-cross-hydrogen-concept https://www.toyota-europe.com/news/2022/prototype-corolla-cr... Toyota's big enough that they can try everything. It isn't a conspiracy.
        testing22321 1y ago
        I’ve driven to 65 countries on 5 continents. Everywhere I’ve ever been has electricity of some form (even if it’s one solar panel on a mud hut). I have never seen a hydrogen filling station. The amount of infrastructure required to build out a hydrogen filling network is astronomical, and it has absolutely no chance of working. They’re just saying random stuff so you don’t buy an EV today.
onlypassingthru 1y ago
IIUC, Akio Toyoda loves him some hydrogen and was/is reluctant to give up the dream for this battery nonsense.† † https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-akio-toyoda-electric-vehicles-hydrogen-fuel-cell-plug-in-hybrid https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-akio-toyoda-electric-...

carabiner 1y ago

And it was the correct strategy: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/09/business/toyotas-hybrid-electric-vehicles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/09/business/toyotas-hybrid-e... The best selling vehicle in the US is the RAV4, and not any EV.

AtlasBarfed 1y ago
The correct strategy would have been to basically within 10 years of the release of the insight and the Prius, to mandate hybrid electric vehicles for all consumer vehicles, and 20 years after they, phevs. You may be technically right because our policy is idiotic, and the chances of this happening unde the bush administration was zero. But don't pretend this is some optimal engineering formula you've reduced in an economic journal.
- kulahan 1y ago
  Similarly, you should not pretend this strategy you've posted above is some optimal engineering formula you've reduced in an economic journal. There are many roadblocks to consider before mandating all vehicles go electric, not least among them being an electrical grid which simply cannot handle this level of energy, a lack of access to enough lithium, or tax considerations for vehicles no longer contributing to highways (while creating an order of magnitude more damage) because they don't buy gas.
  - lern_too_spel 1y ago
    You didn't address GP's proposed policy. Hybrids and PHEVs need a lot less lithium than full EVs. The electrical grid can already handle off peak charging of many more EVs than are on the road today. It's straightforward to replace gasoline taxes with electricity taxes and car registration fees, which could also vary by weight, but many states are going further and implementing road usage fees, which can be done by reporting odometer readings.
    - kulahan 1y ago
      They do need a lot less lithium, but we have like 300M cars in the US and only 4M EVs, so unless it's using, like, an ounce of lithium, you'll still have massive sourcing problems. It's also not straightforward (in the US at least) to replace gas taxes with electricity taxes. Electricity is a utility, while gasoline is a good. You can tax goods very easily. Taxing utilities, especially when it comes to "I'm only taxing THIS type of electricity tax" directly violates utility carrier regulations. We had a whole argument over net neutrality, and the foundation of the argument was literally "could you imagine if we charged electricity this way??" So maybe you could do it with registration fees, but that's going to be MUCH harder on lower-income people. It's simple to pay a $.15 tax on your gas tank. It's very difficult to pay an extra $75 on your registration.
      - AtlasBarfed 1y ago
        The Prius was lead acod. Phevs are not a massive draw. You're throwing out the EV fud list straight from the oil companies. You either don't understand hybrid vs Phev vs EV or are being mendacious
        kulahan 1y ago
        No, I'm just showing it's not an economic journal-level idea

breve 1y ago

Toyota's main strategy is to sell cars. They sell the most cars of any automaker. Toyota had record sales of 11.2 million in 2023. They're on track to set another sales record in 2025: https://www.autoblog.com/news/nearly-900000-cars-sold-toyotas-record-july-proves-strategy-works https://www.autoblog.com/news/nearly-900000-cars-sold-toyota...

testing22321 1y ago
While delaying the uptake of EVs.
- breve 1y ago
  No, by simply understanding the car market. Toyota's in the car business. They sell cars.
  - testing22321 1y ago
    So why all the announcements since 2017 about their revolutionary battery coming soon (tm) It was to stop people buying other EVs.
    - breve 1y ago
      No, it's because they're developing solid state batteries. They're also developing hydrogen fuel cell drive trains. They're even trying hydrogen combustion: https://www.toyota-europe.com/news/2022/prototype-corolla-cross-hydrogen-concept https://www.toyota-europe.com/news/2022/prototype-corolla-cr... Toyota's big enough that they can try everything. It isn't a conspiracy.
      - testing22321 1y ago
        I’ve driven to 65 countries on 5 continents. Everywhere I’ve ever been has electricity of some form (even if it’s one solar panel on a mud hut). I have never seen a hydrogen filling station. The amount of infrastructure required to build out a hydrogen filling network is astronomical, and it has absolutely no chance of working. They’re just saying random stuff so you don’t buy an EV today.

onlypassingthru 1y ago

IIUC, Akio Toyoda loves him some hydrogen and was/is reluctant to give up the dream for this battery nonsense.† † https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-akio-toyoda-electric-vehicles-hydrogen-fuel-cell-plug-in-hybrid https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-akio-toyoda-electric-...