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You're creating a false dichotomy. It is true that Venezuela is very poorly governed, and it's also that the the US is doing everything they can to prevent Vene

You're creating a false dichotomy. It is true that Venezuela is very poorly governed, and it's also that the the US is doing everything they can to prevent Venezuela from monetizing their natural resources, oil in particular, in order to try to inflict economic suffering on the common people. This is the whole sadistic, and nonsensical, point of sanctions - inflict suffering on common people in hopes they'll blame their government instead of people inflicting suffering on them, overthrow their government, and then align themselves with the people inflicting suffering on them. Without US sanctions Venezuela, and Venezuelans, would be in a dramatically better place today.

ErneX 1y ago
The countless human rights violations, stealing elections etc. predate the sanctions. This honestly feels like patronizing. Look up the UN reports of all the human rights violations happened over the last couple of decades there.
diego_moita 1y ago
> Without US sanctions Venezuela, and Venezuelans, would be in a dramatically better place today. No. They wouldn't. The Venezuelan government has proven extremely incompetent to produce oil. What the Trump's tariffs have shown to the world is that, in the scale globalization is today, trade with the US doesn't matter that much anymore. Case in point: Brazil. After Trump stuck 50% tariffs on them, their exports to other countries grew much more than enough to offset the loss to the U.S. The US embargo on Venezuela is a lot like its embargo in Cuba, Iran and North Korea: it is not the cause of people suffering but is an excuse by those corrupt and incompetent regimes to hide their failures.
lentil_soup 1y ago
Don't think you know what you're talking about. The sanctions to the country came way after the economic, social and political chaos.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  Wiki conveniently has a nice graph demonstrating the real GDP/capita in Venezuela [1], which is reasonably reflective of the economic crisis. In 1980 it was around $16,000. By ~2013-2014 it had peaked a bit higher than $18,000 and had risen dramatically faster than the average for Latin America. In 2014 there were mass protests against the government, in reality it was an attempt to overthrow the government, which was responded to with brutality. That brutality was met with sanctions. Today their GDP/capita is about $5000. That's obviously going to be explained in part by the decline in oil prices around the same time, but not to that degree, to say the least. * - As an addendum here it's also unclear to me how exactly Wiki is calculating that figure and whether it accounts for, in any way, the substantial scale of emigration from Venezuela. If not, then the relative decline is even larger than it sounds. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_in_Venezuela#/media/File:Gdp-per-capita-maddison.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_in_Venezuela#/media/Fil...
  - lentil_soup 1y ago
    No, those sanctions were on very specific people, not companies or industries. Those came later in 2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_during_the_Venezuelan_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_during_the_Venezuela...
    - somenameforme 1y ago
      Not quite. A useful term related to sanctions is overcompliance. You can read the exact verbiage of some of the earliest sanctions here. [1] In a nutshell engaging in any form of trade (including transfer of expertise or whatever else) that directly or indirectly benefited a sanctioned person could trigger extremely harsh penalties. Many government officials in Venezuela have direct involvement with various industries, including oil. So it suddenly becomes this extremely complex and dangerous mess when doing any trade whatsoever with Venezuela. This is why their economy completely collapsed following the sanctions. [1] - https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2015/03/11/2015-05677/blocking-property-and-suspending-entry-of-certain-persons-contributing-to-the-situation-in-venezuela https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2015/03/11/2015-05...
thisislife2 1y ago
And look, what a coincidence that this so called neo-liberal "opposition" leader of Venezuela plans to privatise her countries oil companies (and other industries) again, and return it to their original owners (again, just another remarkable co-incidence that her father was the President of such a private company that was nationalised): > Machado defines herself — and her party, Vente Venezuela — as “liberal” (or neoliberal, depending on how you look at it), both politically and economically. Her political vision revolves around reducing the size of the state as a provider of public policies, supporting entrepreneurship and promoting the free market, as a means of creating wealth and jobs in a devastated economy. Her vision of government is similar to what Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan had in mind ... The presidential candidate has proposed privatizing the state-owned oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) — a taboo in local politics — and returning all the companies that have been expropriated by the Chavista regime to their rightful owners. This also includes Siderúrgica Venezolana — a company that her father (who died this year) was the president of, before it was seized ... Her vision on the distribution of social funds is somewhat more American than European, as is her deeply anti-communist discourse. Source: https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-10-01/maria-corina-machado-the-venezuelan-margaret-thatcher.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-10-01/maria-co...
ch4s3 1y ago
> and it's also that the the US is doing everything they can to prevent Venezuela from monetizing their natural resources, oil in particular This is not at all true. A large share of Venezuelan oil is refined in Texas by Citgo for PDVSA. The US could easily stop that but doesn’t. The sanctions are on regime ghouls, the military, and some state companies run by the security apparatus. None of which existed before the 3rd time the Chavistas stole an election and jailed their opposition.

ErneX 1y ago

The countless human rights violations, stealing elections etc. predate the sanctions. This honestly feels like patronizing. Look up the UN reports of all the human rights violations happened over the last couple of decades there.

diego_moita 1y ago

> Without US sanctions Venezuela, and Venezuelans, would be in a dramatically better place today. No. They wouldn't. The Venezuelan government has proven extremely incompetent to produce oil. What the Trump's tariffs have shown to the world is that, in the scale globalization is today, trade with the US doesn't matter that much anymore. Case in point: Brazil. After Trump stuck 50% tariffs on them, their exports to other countries grew much more than enough to offset the loss to the U.S. The US embargo on Venezuela is a lot like its embargo in Cuba, Iran and North Korea: it is not the cause of people suffering but is an excuse by those corrupt and incompetent regimes to hide their failures.

lentil_soup 1y ago

Don't think you know what you're talking about. The sanctions to the country came way after the economic, social and political chaos.

somenameforme 1y ago
Wiki conveniently has a nice graph demonstrating the real GDP/capita in Venezuela [1], which is reasonably reflective of the economic crisis. In 1980 it was around $16,000. By ~2013-2014 it had peaked a bit higher than $18,000 and had risen dramatically faster than the average for Latin America. In 2014 there were mass protests against the government, in reality it was an attempt to overthrow the government, which was responded to with brutality. That brutality was met with sanctions. Today their GDP/capita is about $5000. That's obviously going to be explained in part by the decline in oil prices around the same time, but not to that degree, to say the least. * - As an addendum here it's also unclear to me how exactly Wiki is calculating that figure and whether it accounts for, in any way, the substantial scale of emigration from Venezuela. If not, then the relative decline is even larger than it sounds. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_in_Venezuela#/media/File:Gdp-per-capita-maddison.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_in_Venezuela#/media/Fil...
- lentil_soup 1y ago
  No, those sanctions were on very specific people, not companies or industries. Those came later in 2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_during_the_Venezuelan_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_during_the_Venezuela...
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    Not quite. A useful term related to sanctions is overcompliance. You can read the exact verbiage of some of the earliest sanctions here. [1] In a nutshell engaging in any form of trade (including transfer of expertise or whatever else) that directly or indirectly benefited a sanctioned person could trigger extremely harsh penalties. Many government officials in Venezuela have direct involvement with various industries, including oil. So it suddenly becomes this extremely complex and dangerous mess when doing any trade whatsoever with Venezuela. This is why their economy completely collapsed following the sanctions. [1] - https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2015/03/11/2015-05677/blocking-property-and-suspending-entry-of-certain-persons-contributing-to-the-situation-in-venezuela https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2015/03/11/2015-05...

thisislife2 1y ago

And look, what a coincidence that this so called neo-liberal "opposition" leader of Venezuela plans to privatise her countries oil companies (and other industries) again, and return it to their original owners (again, just another remarkable co-incidence that her father was the President of such a private company that was nationalised): > Machado defines herself — and her party, Vente Venezuela — as “liberal” (or neoliberal, depending on how you look at it), both politically and economically. Her political vision revolves around reducing the size of the state as a provider of public policies, supporting entrepreneurship and promoting the free market, as a means of creating wealth and jobs in a devastated economy. Her vision of government is similar to what Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan had in mind ... The presidential candidate has proposed privatizing the state-owned oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) — a taboo in local politics — and returning all the companies that have been expropriated by the Chavista regime to their rightful owners. This also includes Siderúrgica Venezolana — a company that her father (who died this year) was the president of, before it was seized ... Her vision on the distribution of social funds is somewhat more American than European, as is her deeply anti-communist discourse. Source: https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-10-01/maria-corina-machado-the-venezuelan-margaret-thatcher.html https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-10-01/maria-co...

ch4s3 1y ago

> and it's also that the the US is doing everything they can to prevent Venezuela from monetizing their natural resources, oil in particular This is not at all true. A large share of Venezuelan oil is refined in Texas by Citgo for PDVSA. The US could easily stop that but doesn’t. The sanctions are on regime ghouls, the military, and some state companies run by the security apparatus. None of which existed before the 3rd time the Chavistas stole an election and jailed their opposition.