10 ms·

Don't get me wrong. She has firmly opposed maduro and is a beacon of hope for many in Venezuela but she hasn't accomplished anything meaningful yet? She is just

by weli 1y ago

Don't get me wrong. She has firmly opposed maduro and is a beacon of hope for many in Venezuela but she hasn't accomplished anything meaningful yet? She is just a career politician that just happens to be in the opposition of the venezuelan goverment when Maduro (a dictator) is in power. But she hasn't done anything extraordinary to merit the award.

ErneX 1y ago
Being the opposition leader there is already something extraordinary. While other opposition figures have ended up coziying up with the regime she hasn’t relented. All while important members of her party have been imprisoned or murdered. She’s also in hiding since the last elections, likely on an embassy but undetermined.
alejoar 1y ago
Opposing a dictatorship at great personal risk, being exiled, banned from elections, and still leading a democratic movement isn't "nothing". I think this prize recognizes her courage and fight for human rights. Dismissing that as "just being in the opposition" ignores the reality of what it takes to stand up to Maduro's dictatorship.
- catlikesshrimp 1y ago
  Moreover, she had been doing that for over 20 years. I am surprised by all her determination, her courage, and her luck to still be alive.
  - croes 1y ago
    Then the dictatorship can't be as bad as Russia for instance.The opposition dies pretty quickly there. Or fell out of windows.
    - ErneX 1y ago
      You think that doesn’t happen in Venezuela? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/09/fernando-alban-death-venezuela-opposition-politician-custody https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/09/fernando-alban...
    - catlikesshrimp 1y ago
      I suppose Venezuela has hope because it is a weak country with nominal US pressure agaisnt the current regime. Russia is self sufficient and has WMD (nuclear) On top of that, if I am not mistaken, Russia doesn't know what Democracy is. (Yeltsin and Medvedev up for discussion) As a result, for starters, Maduro can't make radical changes in the army.
      - croes 1y ago
        >As a result, for starters, Maduro can't make radical changes in the army. So it isn't as bad as Russia. Putin hasn't such boundaries.
- rob74 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - scrollaway 1y ago
    It’s scary when the reality of the situation settles in, isn’t it? Scarier when you understand that 20 years is way too long an estimate for this. Europe is watching.
  - lentil_soup 1y ago
    come on folks, no need to make everything about the US. The situation and evolution of Venezuela is vastly different. There are a lot of parallels, like with any other authoritarian government, and probably lessons the US opposition can learn, but don't equate the two as it overshadows the struggles Venezuelans have endured for 25+ years. Let them have their moment
  - alejoar 1y ago
    Wow, ok. Comparing leading the Democratic Party in the US to leading a pro democracy movement under an actual dictatorship is a wild take. It completely banalizes the risks people like Machado face just for opposing authoritarian power. Pretending there's any equivalence between the two situations says a lot about your worldview, or lack thereof.
    - rob74 1y ago
      Ok, I guess we'll see in 20 years (you did read the "20 years" part I hope?) if my assessment is correct. It was maybe a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I don't have any doubts that Trump would like to be an "actual dictator" and is actively testing how far he can expand the limits of his power. Democracy in the US is more established than in other countries that have had authoritarian takeovers in recent years (Hungary, Turkey, Russia etc.), but we'll see if it's resilient enough.
      - netsharc 1y ago
        [flagged]
- beernet 1y ago
  Exactly this. This dismissal itself is a large part of the problem. The audacity, wow.
- weli 1y ago
  I'm not saying that she isn't a good politician or that what she is doing is not a step in the right direction. I personally like her. All I'm saying is that she hasn't accomplished anything meaningful to merit the Nobel prize. That's like giving the Nobel in physics to someone that has worked all their life publishing papers but they all have been refuted and proven wrong. I don't think "prize" for the merit of being relentless in their fight for publishing physics papers is merited, maybe a different honor, but Peace Nobels should be given to - and i quote -: "to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses."
  - bratwurst3000 1y ago
    if you fight for justice peace and humanity the fight is the thing acomplished. standing up and risking their lives for the good of humanity merrits more then a nobel price can give!
  - vasco 1y ago
    Can you list which of the recent nobel peace prizes were attributed according to your standards?
    - weli 1y ago
      They are not my standards. They are the Nobel Peace committee's standards. And I do agree Nobel Peace prizes are purely performative, but this one alongside Barack Obama has been one of the most performative ones I can remember.
      - CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
        > They are the Nobel Peace committee's standards I think they're older than that, Nobel apparently left a will that included three conditions for what we today call the Nobel Peace Prize: > and one part to the person who has done the most or best to advance fellowship among nations, the abolition or reduction of standing armies, and the establishment and promotion of peace congresses. https://www.nobelprize.org/alfred-nobel/full-text-of-alfred-nobels-will-2/ https://www.nobelprize.org/alfred-nobel/full-text-of-alfred-...
- Al-Khwarizmi 1y ago
  Not to diminish her valor and heroism. Mad respect. But how is that actually about peace? A dictatorship can be peaceful, and a democracy can be warlike. Venezuela hasn't been involved in any war recently as far as I know. Of course people who fight for democracy deserve being praised and supported, but to me it looks odd to do so with a peace prize. The prize is supposed to be awarded to people who have "done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses". Is this the case here?
  - CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
    There is something called "democratic peace theory" which argues that democracies are less likely to attack other democracies, compared to other forms. So I guess you could also claim that democracy helps maintain peace from that point of view, and a person who successfully proved that a "democratic election" really wasn't democratic at all feels like the right thing to award, as it'll further international peace. edit: the submission article also talks briefly about how peace and democracy is linked (in their eyes): > Democracy is a precondition for lasting peace. However, we live in a world where democracy is in retreat, where more and more authoritarian regimes are challenging norms and resorting to violence. The Venezuelan regime’s rigid hold on power and its repression of the population are not unique in the world. We see the same trends globally: rule of law abused by those in control, free media silenced, critics imprisoned, and societies pushed towards authoritarian rule and militarisation. In 2024, more elections were held than ever before, but fewer and fewer are free and fair.
    - dormento 1y ago
      > Democracy is a precondition for lasting peace Op's comment was about how this is not a given. Though tbf I can't recall any "peaceful" dictatorships, while I can recall a few war-happy democracies.
      - Al-Khwarizmi 1y ago
        In my own country, Spain, the Francoist dictatorship (1939–1975) never attacked other countries or participated in any foreign wars (beyond sending a division of volunteers to WWII). Its domestic policy was highly repressive with common execution of political dissidents, etc., but in the sense of "no war" it was peaceful. The same goes for Salazar's Portugal, Hoxha’s Albania or Tito's Yugoslavia.
- k3vinw 1y ago
  That personal risk includes having yourself or loved ones thrown in prison without any contact to the outside world for however long the dictatorship sees fit. It’s a very sad history of oppression and corruption that has forced many Venezuelans to pull up their roots and risk their lives leaving their own country. It would be a dream come true to see this dictatorship overthrown and replaced by a democratic system of government that serves the people.
mananoreboton 1y ago
Don't get me wrong, but perhaps what was missing was greater media coverage and genuine interest in Venezuela's situation. María Corina Machado orchestrated a HUGE covert months long operation to collect tally sheets from the overwhelming majority of voting machines during the 2024 presidential election. Her team trained poll watchers to demand vote receipts (as legally permitted) then capture and transmit that data through various channels, even from the most remote regions of the country. There are documented cases of people—poll workers and participants in the plan—being imprisoned or even killed for their involvement. Thanks to this operation, the website resultadospresidencialesvenezuela2024.com exists, where venezuelan can verify the actual vote count per candidate, backed by fingerprint records and the serial numbers of both the software and hardware used. These verified results confirm that Edmundo González was the true winner of the election. The data provides undeniable evidence that Nicolás Maduro installed himself as a dictator, with the full support of the national electoral authority, which, to this day, has refused to release the official election results (a procedure that has historically been routine). You can also verify the results here https://macedoniadelnorte.com/ https://macedoniadelnorte.com/ (a whole story behind this hostname). Again, only possible by the María Corina's huge effort
- moralestapia 1y ago
  [flagged]
- croes 1y ago
  Sounds more like a Pulitzer than Nobel Peace Price. On the other hand, Gore got one for less.
  - vasco 1y ago
    It's a better recipient than pretty much all of the recent previous ones, definitely better than all the presidents.
  - JohnLocke4 1y ago
    There is even a Wikipedia section for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize_controversies#Peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize_controversies#Peac...
af78 1y ago
In a dictatorship, running against the leader involves more personal risk than in a country that is already democratic. Also, democracies tend to be more peaceful than dictatorships; my understanding is that efforts to transition from dictatorship to democracy may be regarded as a contribution to peace. She also received the Sakharov Prize not long ago; if she had to receive only one, the latter would be easier to explain.
KingMob 1y ago
That reminds me a bit of former winner Aung San Suu Kyi, who got the prize in 1991, while not having done or said that much at the time of the award, other than be a political prisoner. I respect that she opposed the Burmese military junta most of her life, but then a year after coming to power in 2015, she defended the military against charges of complicity in the Rohingya genocide to preserve her fragile government. Personally, I think the Peace Prize shouldn't go to politicians at all.
- SanjayMehta 1y ago
  Aung San Suu Kyi was just another "compliant native" similar to those the British installed prior to leaving the colonies. The roadmap was laid out by Cecil Rhodes in his letters and will and extensively documented in "The Secret Society" by Robin Brown. It's quite fascinating to see their networks with the benefit of hindsight. For example, Mountbatten installed Nehru as the first unelected PM of India. Aung San Suu Kyi was educated in New Delhi India and during that time, she lived in Nehru's home.
  - selimthegrim 1y ago
    Was Sardar Patel or Maulana Azad taking their orders too?
    - SanjayMehta 1y ago
      Patel was under the thumb of Gandhi. Gandhi is the one who made Patel step aside in favour of Nehru, despite the latter losing the April 1946 election for the role Congress president; the understanding with the British was that the President of the Congress would be the first PM. Gandhi had a history of appeasement and compliance (see "The South African Gandhi" by Vahed and Desai) to the British, so Patel could be considered compromised indirectly. Personally I don't believe Patel was a stooge, just a victim of the personality cult around Gandhi. As for "Azad" - real name Abul Kalam Ghulam Muhiyuddin - I have not looked into his history.
  - prashantsengar 1y ago
conradfr 1y ago
How much had Obama done in 2009? Maybe they forgot the criticism from back then.
arrrg 1y ago
The peace prize is often given to people still working on something, not having achieved something. In that way it is different from the science prizes. I think that is a understandable approach (providing support), though it can lead to giving the prize to people who never achieve any of their goals. Whether that’s a worthy trade off I do not know.
idoubtit 1y ago
We can only hope that she will not behave like the previous career politicians that got the Nobel Peace Prize in recent years. Abiy Ahmed (2019), from Ethiopia, ended the cold war with Eritrea. Then he launched a war against the region of Tigray, with mass rapes and mass civilian killings. He harassed the free press, and turned the country into an autocracy. Juan Manuel Santos (2016) from Colombia and Ellen Johnson Sirleaf (2011) from Liberia later appeared in Paradise Papers because they had secret offshore companies in Panama and Barbades. Their political activity was more tame after the prize than before. Both ended their presidential tenures with plummeting approval rates, especially because of corruption allegations. Barack Obama (2009) received the Prize for his generous discourses on foreign policy, just after being elected. Then he lead the USA to more war in Afghanistan, and a new war in Libya. He helped Saudi Arabia invade Yemen (UN states this war killed 300,000 people). He helped the Egyptian army with its coup, that killed thousands of opponents and sent 60,000 in jails (including the elected president who died there). In my opinion, this prize is, most of the time, a dark and heavily political joke.
- CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but people are awarded the prize based on what they've done, not based on what they might do in the future. I'm not sure you could claim the award is a joke because of people did after being awarded it, especially when most people awarded didn't launch new wars or helped coups.
  - finghin 1y ago
    Ideally, we would accept the recipients as being of “certified good character”. But the stability of this pattern shows chronic lack of basic insight into the awardees, IMO.
    - CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
      No, ideally you'd understand under what basis the prize is handed out, and then draw your conclusions from that (or avoid thinking something specific will happen in the future based on the prize itself). Nothing in the criteria for the handing out the prize has anything about the reception having any sort of specific character, good or bad. This is all of the conditions for the award: > Fraternity between nations; abolition or reduction of standing armies; and the holding and promotion of peace congresses So every year they look at candidates and what they've done within those things, then make an judgement.
rzwitserloot 1y ago
She managed to convince a people of a country that has been entrenched in authoritarianism that the vote was rigged without using violence. Imagine one day we wake up after the usual yawn-inducing sham elections in Russia and Putin won as usual but a large chunk of the country, probably a plurality of it, is utterly convinced that it was completely fake and that Navalny won. Without anybody using violence to do it. Those who think there is nothing to be done but to counter authoritarianism without another authoritarian, or violence, or just to give up and suffer it - might be inspired by this. I'm not the NNC but that seems like a "meaningful accomplishment". You could ask: "Sure, allright, the populace was convinced that election was a sham. But... Maduro is still in power so she still hasn't done much". Let me flip it around, perhaps: What did Gandi ever actually accomplish? Isn't it the same thing: Show that violence is not a necessary element, get the people to reframe the situation a bit? Can we prove Gandi sped up the UK's exit? Even if we can, one of those holocaust level holy heck humanity can get extremely dark moments in history that is rarely talked about is the absolute terror that occurred during the split of the Raj into India and Pakistan. My point is: Judging the eligibility of a person for a peace prize on the basis of 'measurable meaningful accomplishment' is not how it works and probably shouldn't be how it works. It's either a bullshit prize (kissinger got one...) or it is like making a statue of somebody: It takes a person, turns them into a principle or ideal. Even though humans are much more complex than that. The notion of "one is capable of being in opposition in an autocratic regime and get stuff done without resorting to violence" got a peace prize, but as per the dictat of Alfred Nobel, only people can get it, so, they stuck the label "Maria Corina Machado" on it. And that wasn't a bad labelling: She really did accomplish 'meaningfully' that goal, at least, I'd gather according to most folks' definition of the word 'capable'.
- WmWsjA6B29B4nfk 1y ago
  > Imagine one day we wake up after the usual yawn-inducing sham elections in Russia and Putin won as usual but a large chunk of the country, probably a plurality of it, is utterly convinced that it was completely fake and that Navalny won. Without anybody using violence to do it. Exactly this happened in Belarus in 2020. Government wasn't shy of using its power though, many people got long prison sentences, many people had to run, nothing changed wrt to dictatorship. I don't see anything inspiring in this story honestly.
voidhorse 1y ago
lol. Speaking of careers, leave it to HN to get a bunch of careerists whose main priority is their own pockets to engage in some armchair debate about how people who have likely done significantly more for the world than they will ever do don't deserve a peace prize. The amount of presumption, ignorance, and lack of reflection in your comment is astounding. It shows that you don't take life seriously and/or don't understand what risks being an opposition party in a dictatorship actually entails.
segmondy 1y ago
It's so disappointing to see many folks engaging with the troll you are. You made this account just to post this garbage. Why didn't you post with your regular account? You can't even face folks on the internet. Do you think you have what it takes to face a dictator in the real world?
softwaredoug 1y ago
People imagine political movements as something to accomplish in their lifetime. When the real movements are multi-generational and involve planting trees you'll never enjoy the shade of. I get frustrated in the US we are always thinking in terms of the next election. Movements that effect lasting change: civil rights, national independence movements, ending slavery, heck even the current conservative regime in the US, are all multigenerational efforts with clear principles and goals that get passed down.
kingkawn 1y ago
Yes but this is a way for them to give it to someone who supports Trump’s worldview so that they can try to dodge the controversy and pressure being put on them to give it to Trump
lbrito 1y ago
Look up the winners of 1991 and 2009. The prize is a joke. Its almost an anti-prize at this point. Look at the company you would be with. I definitively would not want to be included in that group.
revel 1y ago
What exactly do you mean by "career politician?" Being a member of the opposition in a dictatorship means giving up material wealth and putting your life & liberty on the line.

by weli 1y ago

ErneX 1y ago

Being the opposition leader there is already something extraordinary. While other opposition figures have ended up coziying up with the regime she hasn’t relented. All while important members of her party have been imprisoned or murdered. She’s also in hiding since the last elections, likely on an embassy but undetermined.

alejoar 1y ago

Opposing a dictatorship at great personal risk, being exiled, banned from elections, and still leading a democratic movement isn't "nothing". I think this prize recognizes her courage and fight for human rights. Dismissing that as "just being in the opposition" ignores the reality of what it takes to stand up to Maduro's dictatorship.

catlikesshrimp 1y ago
Moreover, she had been doing that for over 20 years. I am surprised by all her determination, her courage, and her luck to still be alive.
- croes 1y ago
  Then the dictatorship can't be as bad as Russia for instance.The opposition dies pretty quickly there. Or fell out of windows.
  - ErneX 1y ago
    You think that doesn’t happen in Venezuela? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/09/fernando-alban-death-venezuela-opposition-politician-custody https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/09/fernando-alban...
  - catlikesshrimp 1y ago
    I suppose Venezuela has hope because it is a weak country with nominal US pressure agaisnt the current regime. Russia is self sufficient and has WMD (nuclear) On top of that, if I am not mistaken, Russia doesn't know what Democracy is. (Yeltsin and Medvedev up for discussion) As a result, for starters, Maduro can't make radical changes in the army.
    - croes 1y ago
      >As a result, for starters, Maduro can't make radical changes in the army. So it isn't as bad as Russia. Putin hasn't such boundaries.
rob74 1y ago
[flagged]
- scrollaway 1y ago
  It’s scary when the reality of the situation settles in, isn’t it? Scarier when you understand that 20 years is way too long an estimate for this. Europe is watching.
- lentil_soup 1y ago
  come on folks, no need to make everything about the US. The situation and evolution of Venezuela is vastly different. There are a lot of parallels, like with any other authoritarian government, and probably lessons the US opposition can learn, but don't equate the two as it overshadows the struggles Venezuelans have endured for 25+ years. Let them have their moment
- alejoar 1y ago
  Wow, ok. Comparing leading the Democratic Party in the US to leading a pro democracy movement under an actual dictatorship is a wild take. It completely banalizes the risks people like Machado face just for opposing authoritarian power. Pretending there's any equivalence between the two situations says a lot about your worldview, or lack thereof.
  - rob74 1y ago
    Ok, I guess we'll see in 20 years (you did read the "20 years" part I hope?) if my assessment is correct. It was maybe a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I don't have any doubts that Trump would like to be an "actual dictator" and is actively testing how far he can expand the limits of his power. Democracy in the US is more established than in other countries that have had authoritarian takeovers in recent years (Hungary, Turkey, Russia etc.), but we'll see if it's resilient enough.
    - netsharc 1y ago
      [flagged]
beernet 1y ago
Exactly this. This dismissal itself is a large part of the problem. The audacity, wow.
weli 1y ago
I'm not saying that she isn't a good politician or that what she is doing is not a step in the right direction. I personally like her. All I'm saying is that she hasn't accomplished anything meaningful to merit the Nobel prize. That's like giving the Nobel in physics to someone that has worked all their life publishing papers but they all have been refuted and proven wrong. I don't think "prize" for the merit of being relentless in their fight for publishing physics papers is merited, maybe a different honor, but Peace Nobels should be given to - and i quote -: "to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses."
- bratwurst3000 1y ago
  if you fight for justice peace and humanity the fight is the thing acomplished. standing up and risking their lives for the good of humanity merrits more then a nobel price can give!
- vasco 1y ago
  Can you list which of the recent nobel peace prizes were attributed according to your standards?
  - weli 1y ago
    They are not my standards. They are the Nobel Peace committee's standards. And I do agree Nobel Peace prizes are purely performative, but this one alongside Barack Obama has been one of the most performative ones I can remember.
    - CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
      > They are the Nobel Peace committee's standards I think they're older than that, Nobel apparently left a will that included three conditions for what we today call the Nobel Peace Prize: > and one part to the person who has done the most or best to advance fellowship among nations, the abolition or reduction of standing armies, and the establishment and promotion of peace congresses. https://www.nobelprize.org/alfred-nobel/full-text-of-alfred-nobels-will-2/ https://www.nobelprize.org/alfred-nobel/full-text-of-alfred-...
Al-Khwarizmi 1y ago
Not to diminish her valor and heroism. Mad respect. But how is that actually about peace? A dictatorship can be peaceful, and a democracy can be warlike. Venezuela hasn't been involved in any war recently as far as I know. Of course people who fight for democracy deserve being praised and supported, but to me it looks odd to do so with a peace prize. The prize is supposed to be awarded to people who have "done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses". Is this the case here?
- CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
  There is something called "democratic peace theory" which argues that democracies are less likely to attack other democracies, compared to other forms. So I guess you could also claim that democracy helps maintain peace from that point of view, and a person who successfully proved that a "democratic election" really wasn't democratic at all feels like the right thing to award, as it'll further international peace. edit: the submission article also talks briefly about how peace and democracy is linked (in their eyes): > Democracy is a precondition for lasting peace. However, we live in a world where democracy is in retreat, where more and more authoritarian regimes are challenging norms and resorting to violence. The Venezuelan regime’s rigid hold on power and its repression of the population are not unique in the world. We see the same trends globally: rule of law abused by those in control, free media silenced, critics imprisoned, and societies pushed towards authoritarian rule and militarisation. In 2024, more elections were held than ever before, but fewer and fewer are free and fair.
  - dormento 1y ago
    > Democracy is a precondition for lasting peace Op's comment was about how this is not a given. Though tbf I can't recall any "peaceful" dictatorships, while I can recall a few war-happy democracies.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 1y ago
      In my own country, Spain, the Francoist dictatorship (1939–1975) never attacked other countries or participated in any foreign wars (beyond sending a division of volunteers to WWII). Its domestic policy was highly repressive with common execution of political dissidents, etc., but in the sense of "no war" it was peaceful. The same goes for Salazar's Portugal, Hoxha’s Albania or Tito's Yugoslavia.
k3vinw 1y ago
That personal risk includes having yourself or loved ones thrown in prison without any contact to the outside world for however long the dictatorship sees fit. It’s a very sad history of oppression and corruption that has forced many Venezuelans to pull up their roots and risk their lives leaving their own country. It would be a dream come true to see this dictatorship overthrown and replaced by a democratic system of government that serves the people.

mananoreboton 1y ago

Don't get me wrong, but perhaps what was missing was greater media coverage and genuine interest in Venezuela's situation. María Corina Machado orchestrated a HUGE covert months long operation to collect tally sheets from the overwhelming majority of voting machines during the 2024 presidential election. Her team trained poll watchers to demand vote receipts (as legally permitted) then capture and transmit that data through various channels, even from the most remote regions of the country. There are documented cases of people—poll workers and participants in the plan—being imprisoned or even killed for their involvement. Thanks to this operation, the website resultadospresidencialesvenezuela2024.com exists, where venezuelan can verify the actual vote count per candidate, backed by fingerprint records and the serial numbers of both the software and hardware used. These verified results confirm that Edmundo González was the true winner of the election. The data provides undeniable evidence that Nicolás Maduro installed himself as a dictator, with the full support of the national electoral authority, which, to this day, has refused to release the official election results (a procedure that has historically been routine). You can also verify the results here https://macedoniadelnorte.com/ https://macedoniadelnorte.com/ (a whole story behind this hostname). Again, only possible by the María Corina's huge effort

moralestapia 1y ago
[flagged]
croes 1y ago
Sounds more like a Pulitzer than Nobel Peace Price. On the other hand, Gore got one for less.
- vasco 1y ago
  It's a better recipient than pretty much all of the recent previous ones, definitely better than all the presidents.
- JohnLocke4 1y ago
  There is even a Wikipedia section for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize_controversies#Peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize_controversies#Peac...

af78 1y ago

In a dictatorship, running against the leader involves more personal risk than in a country that is already democratic. Also, democracies tend to be more peaceful than dictatorships; my understanding is that efforts to transition from dictatorship to democracy may be regarded as a contribution to peace. She also received the Sakharov Prize not long ago; if she had to receive only one, the latter would be easier to explain.

KingMob 1y ago

That reminds me a bit of former winner Aung San Suu Kyi, who got the prize in 1991, while not having done or said that much at the time of the award, other than be a political prisoner. I respect that she opposed the Burmese military junta most of her life, but then a year after coming to power in 2015, she defended the military against charges of complicity in the Rohingya genocide to preserve her fragile government. Personally, I think the Peace Prize shouldn't go to politicians at all.

SanjayMehta 1y ago
Aung San Suu Kyi was just another "compliant native" similar to those the British installed prior to leaving the colonies. The roadmap was laid out by Cecil Rhodes in his letters and will and extensively documented in "The Secret Society" by Robin Brown. It's quite fascinating to see their networks with the benefit of hindsight. For example, Mountbatten installed Nehru as the first unelected PM of India. Aung San Suu Kyi was educated in New Delhi India and during that time, she lived in Nehru's home.
- selimthegrim 1y ago
  Was Sardar Patel or Maulana Azad taking their orders too?
  - SanjayMehta 1y ago
    Patel was under the thumb of Gandhi. Gandhi is the one who made Patel step aside in favour of Nehru, despite the latter losing the April 1946 election for the role Congress president; the understanding with the British was that the President of the Congress would be the first PM. Gandhi had a history of appeasement and compliance (see "The South African Gandhi" by Vahed and Desai) to the British, so Patel could be considered compromised indirectly. Personally I don't believe Patel was a stooge, just a victim of the personality cult around Gandhi. As for "Azad" - real name Abul Kalam Ghulam Muhiyuddin - I have not looked into his history.
- prashantsengar 1y ago

conradfr 1y ago

How much had Obama done in 2009? Maybe they forgot the criticism from back then.

arrrg 1y ago

The peace prize is often given to people still working on something, not having achieved something. In that way it is different from the science prizes. I think that is a understandable approach (providing support), though it can lead to giving the prize to people who never achieve any of their goals. Whether that’s a worthy trade off I do not know.

idoubtit 1y ago

We can only hope that she will not behave like the previous career politicians that got the Nobel Peace Prize in recent years. Abiy Ahmed (2019), from Ethiopia, ended the cold war with Eritrea. Then he launched a war against the region of Tigray, with mass rapes and mass civilian killings. He harassed the free press, and turned the country into an autocracy. Juan Manuel Santos (2016) from Colombia and Ellen Johnson Sirleaf (2011) from Liberia later appeared in Paradise Papers because they had secret offshore companies in Panama and Barbades. Their political activity was more tame after the prize than before. Both ended their presidential tenures with plummeting approval rates, especially because of corruption allegations. Barack Obama (2009) received the Prize for his generous discourses on foreign policy, just after being elected. Then he lead the USA to more war in Afghanistan, and a new war in Libya. He helped Saudi Arabia invade Yemen (UN states this war killed 300,000 people). He helped the Egyptian army with its coup, that killed thousands of opponents and sent 60,000 in jails (including the elected president who died there). In my opinion, this prize is, most of the time, a dark and heavily political joke.

CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but people are awarded the prize based on what they've done, not based on what they might do in the future. I'm not sure you could claim the award is a joke because of people did after being awarded it, especially when most people awarded didn't launch new wars or helped coups.
- finghin 1y ago
  Ideally, we would accept the recipients as being of “certified good character”. But the stability of this pattern shows chronic lack of basic insight into the awardees, IMO.
  - CaptainOfCoit 1y ago
    No, ideally you'd understand under what basis the prize is handed out, and then draw your conclusions from that (or avoid thinking something specific will happen in the future based on the prize itself). Nothing in the criteria for the handing out the prize has anything about the reception having any sort of specific character, good or bad. This is all of the conditions for the award: > Fraternity between nations; abolition or reduction of standing armies; and the holding and promotion of peace congresses So every year they look at candidates and what they've done within those things, then make an judgement.

rzwitserloot 1y ago

She managed to convince a people of a country that has been entrenched in authoritarianism that the vote was rigged without using violence. Imagine one day we wake up after the usual yawn-inducing sham elections in Russia and Putin won as usual but a large chunk of the country, probably a plurality of it, is utterly convinced that it was completely fake and that Navalny won. Without anybody using violence to do it. Those who think there is nothing to be done but to counter authoritarianism without another authoritarian, or violence, or just to give up and suffer it - might be inspired by this. I'm not the NNC but that seems like a "meaningful accomplishment". You could ask: "Sure, allright, the populace was convinced that election was a sham. But... Maduro is still in power so she still hasn't done much". Let me flip it around, perhaps: What did Gandi ever actually accomplish? Isn't it the same thing: Show that violence is not a necessary element, get the people to reframe the situation a bit? Can we prove Gandi sped up the UK's exit? Even if we can, one of those holocaust level holy heck humanity can get extremely dark moments in history that is rarely talked about is the absolute terror that occurred during the split of the Raj into India and Pakistan. My point is: Judging the eligibility of a person for a peace prize on the basis of 'measurable meaningful accomplishment' is not how it works and probably shouldn't be how it works. It's either a bullshit prize (kissinger got one...) or it is like making a statue of somebody: It takes a person, turns them into a principle or ideal. Even though humans are much more complex than that. The notion of "one is capable of being in opposition in an autocratic regime and get stuff done without resorting to violence" got a peace prize, but as per the dictat of Alfred Nobel, only people can get it, so, they stuck the label "Maria Corina Machado" on it. And that wasn't a bad labelling: She really did accomplish 'meaningfully' that goal, at least, I'd gather according to most folks' definition of the word 'capable'.

WmWsjA6B29B4nfk 1y ago
> Imagine one day we wake up after the usual yawn-inducing sham elections in Russia and Putin won as usual but a large chunk of the country, probably a plurality of it, is utterly convinced that it was completely fake and that Navalny won. Without anybody using violence to do it. Exactly this happened in Belarus in 2020. Government wasn't shy of using its power though, many people got long prison sentences, many people had to run, nothing changed wrt to dictatorship. I don't see anything inspiring in this story honestly.

voidhorse 1y ago

lol. Speaking of careers, leave it to HN to get a bunch of careerists whose main priority is their own pockets to engage in some armchair debate about how people who have likely done significantly more for the world than they will ever do don't deserve a peace prize. The amount of presumption, ignorance, and lack of reflection in your comment is astounding. It shows that you don't take life seriously and/or don't understand what risks being an opposition party in a dictatorship actually entails.

segmondy 1y ago

It's so disappointing to see many folks engaging with the troll you are. You made this account just to post this garbage. Why didn't you post with your regular account? You can't even face folks on the internet. Do you think you have what it takes to face a dictator in the real world?

softwaredoug 1y ago

People imagine political movements as something to accomplish in their lifetime. When the real movements are multi-generational and involve planting trees you'll never enjoy the shade of. I get frustrated in the US we are always thinking in terms of the next election. Movements that effect lasting change: civil rights, national independence movements, ending slavery, heck even the current conservative regime in the US, are all multigenerational efforts with clear principles and goals that get passed down.

kingkawn 1y ago

Yes but this is a way for them to give it to someone who supports Trump’s worldview so that they can try to dodge the controversy and pressure being put on them to give it to Trump

lbrito 1y ago

Look up the winners of 1991 and 2009. The prize is a joke. Its almost an anti-prize at this point. Look at the company you would be with. I definitively would not want to be included in that group.

revel 1y ago

What exactly do you mean by "career politician?" Being a member of the opposition in a dictatorship means giving up material wealth and putting your life & liberty on the line.