5 ms·

It's good to know -- having replace-url functionality behind the paywall is likely to be a deal-killer; I can't help but think that this "freemium" model is rea

by gwd 1y ago

It's good to know -- having replace-url functionality behind the paywall is likely to be a deal-killer; I can't help but think that this "freemium" model is really going to kill datastar's prospects for taking off; at best it's likely to result in a fork which ends up subsuming the original project. That said, the attitude of the guy in the article is really messed up. Saying "fuck you" to someone who gave you something amazing for free, because he's not giving you as much as you want for free -- it's entitled to a toxic degree, and poisons the well for anyone else who may want to do something open-source.

chownie 1y ago
On the latter point, couldn't disagree more. He's saying "fuck you" to the product, not the person, and unilaterally removing extant features to paywall them imo is poisoning the well far more than a simple FU to a developer ever could?
- jgalt212 1y ago
  Fair enough, but the use of coarse language can also impair the underlying point. i.e. the shock value can derail the reader. For such reasons, The Economist style guide advises against using fancy language when simpler language will suffice.
  - librasteve 1y ago
    err, fuck is simple
  - chownie 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing I don't really have much of a response beyond this.
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  We didn't remove the features, if you want to use the old ones they're still there in the repo. We just didn't want to support the old way of doing them when we actively tell people not to use them. If you're going to be a support burden going forward we want you to have skin in the game if not cool do it yourself no one's going to get mad at you
  - chownie 1y ago
    Deprecating a feature and replacing it with a paywalled version is imo a distinction without a difference. You're of course free to do it, just as I'm free continue to use other products which do not do this.
    - ianbutler 1y ago
      In any hypothetical open source project I make from now on where I am the owner and sole director I'll just get rid of the features entirely if they cause an undue support burden (which the datastar dev has gone up and down both threads saying this is what happened) to avoid specifically your comment. Seems to fit in with your world view better and then I can just leave those people high and dry with much less concern! You're not owed these people's time.
      - chownie 1y ago
        Don't worry, I also won't use your product :) If the point is good stewardship of the product, deleting features that users clearly need only to replace with a for-pay version stinks possibly only slightly less than deprecating features users clearly need and then replacing with nothing. Both of these things mean your product sucks.
        ianbutler 1y ago
        That's fine, less entitled people is healthy for a projects ecosystem. For a proper way this would work, you the user would contribute your time for those features so you don't overburden the maintainer, but people like you won't and so this is where we're at. I'd rather avoid burnout (which will kill a project entirely) and lose a few folks like you.
        chownie 1y ago
        > For a proper way this would work, you the user would contribute your time for those features so you don't overburden the maintainer, but people like you won't and so this is where we're at. Sure, if you're up front and honest from the beginning then some users will do that, the majority are likely to go for other offerings which don't suffer this problem. Vanishingly few users are going to be cool with features disappearing and then reappearing later on with a price tag attached, which is the scenario we're talking about. In reality, 99.9% of the users are going to be using whatever free thing is available and your project will live for just about as long as you personally care about it. Rightly or wrongly, the maintainer's work/life balance isn't on the forefront of your mind when you're looking at npm packages, no amount of grandstanding will change that.
physicsguy 1y ago
The freemium model of everything makes me skeptical and reluctant to buy too much into many things. Bit like Pydantic. It's a JSON parsing library at the end of the day, and now suddenly that's got a corporate backer and they've built a new thing Polars is similar. It's a faster Pandas and now suddenly it's no longer the same prospect. FastAPI the same. That one I find even more egregious since it's effectively Starlette + Pydantic. Edit: Add Plotly/Dash, SQLAlchemy, Streamlit to that list.
- akagusu 1y ago
  I am totally skeptic about freemium too. Are FastAPI and SQLAlchemy freemium too? I didn't know that. Can you share more info, please?
  - physicsguy 1y ago
    There's now a "FastAPI Cloud" product that the author is working on. SQLAlchemy just has paid for support, I shouldn't have included it with the others, I must have confused it with something else.
    - akagusu 1y ago
      Thanks for the information.
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  its a 501c3 with no shares. please tell me how its the same?
rubenvanwyk 1y ago
I referenced the article with hesitation for the same reason, don't think the position the critique takes is great. Interestingly, this article pops up first page if you search "htmx vs datastar".
rpdillon 1y ago
It's more like the mouse saying fuck you to the trap holding the cheese. It's not that the mouse isn't grateful for the free cheese. It's just the mouse understands the surrounding context.
- nchmy 1y ago
  except the trap isnt actually set, and there's a mound of cheese next to it anyway
bccdee 1y ago
> Saying "fuck you" to someone who gave you something amazing for free, because he's not giving you as much as you want for free I don't have a problem, on principle, with paywalling new features. I don't like it, but I don't think it's bad behaviour. Putting up a paywall around features that were previously free, however, I do take issue with. It's deceptive and it's not common practice. It tricks people into becoming invested and then holds hostage the features that they've become invested in using. Frankly, fuck that.
- sudodevnull 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - gwd 1y ago
    I'm normally not one to discourage anyone from open-source; but if toxic entitlement is going to get you this worked up, you might consider whether it's really your thing. The more successful you are the more you're going to encounter.

by gwd 1y ago

chownie 1y ago

On the latter point, couldn't disagree more. He's saying "fuck you" to the product, not the person, and unilaterally removing extant features to paywall them imo is poisoning the well far more than a simple FU to a developer ever could?

jgalt212 1y ago
Fair enough, but the use of coarse language can also impair the underlying point. i.e. the shock value can derail the reader. For such reasons, The Economist style guide advises against using fancy language when simpler language will suffice.
- librasteve 1y ago
  err, fuck is simple
- chownie 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing I don't really have much of a response beyond this.
sudodevnull 1y ago
We didn't remove the features, if you want to use the old ones they're still there in the repo. We just didn't want to support the old way of doing them when we actively tell people not to use them. If you're going to be a support burden going forward we want you to have skin in the game if not cool do it yourself no one's going to get mad at you
- chownie 1y ago
  Deprecating a feature and replacing it with a paywalled version is imo a distinction without a difference. You're of course free to do it, just as I'm free continue to use other products which do not do this.
  - ianbutler 1y ago
    In any hypothetical open source project I make from now on where I am the owner and sole director I'll just get rid of the features entirely if they cause an undue support burden (which the datastar dev has gone up and down both threads saying this is what happened) to avoid specifically your comment. Seems to fit in with your world view better and then I can just leave those people high and dry with much less concern! You're not owed these people's time.
    - chownie 1y ago
      Don't worry, I also won't use your product :) If the point is good stewardship of the product, deleting features that users clearly need only to replace with a for-pay version stinks possibly only slightly less than deprecating features users clearly need and then replacing with nothing. Both of these things mean your product sucks.
      - ianbutler 1y ago
        That's fine, less entitled people is healthy for a projects ecosystem. For a proper way this would work, you the user would contribute your time for those features so you don't overburden the maintainer, but people like you won't and so this is where we're at. I'd rather avoid burnout (which will kill a project entirely) and lose a few folks like you.
        chownie 1y ago
        > For a proper way this would work, you the user would contribute your time for those features so you don't overburden the maintainer, but people like you won't and so this is where we're at. Sure, if you're up front and honest from the beginning then some users will do that, the majority are likely to go for other offerings which don't suffer this problem. Vanishingly few users are going to be cool with features disappearing and then reappearing later on with a price tag attached, which is the scenario we're talking about. In reality, 99.9% of the users are going to be using whatever free thing is available and your project will live for just about as long as you personally care about it. Rightly or wrongly, the maintainer's work/life balance isn't on the forefront of your mind when you're looking at npm packages, no amount of grandstanding will change that.

physicsguy 1y ago

The freemium model of everything makes me skeptical and reluctant to buy too much into many things. Bit like Pydantic. It's a JSON parsing library at the end of the day, and now suddenly that's got a corporate backer and they've built a new thing Polars is similar. It's a faster Pandas and now suddenly it's no longer the same prospect. FastAPI the same. That one I find even more egregious since it's effectively Starlette + Pydantic. Edit: Add Plotly/Dash, SQLAlchemy, Streamlit to that list.

akagusu 1y ago
I am totally skeptic about freemium too. Are FastAPI and SQLAlchemy freemium too? I didn't know that. Can you share more info, please?
- physicsguy 1y ago
  There's now a "FastAPI Cloud" product that the author is working on. SQLAlchemy just has paid for support, I shouldn't have included it with the others, I must have confused it with something else.
  - akagusu 1y ago
    Thanks for the information.
sudodevnull 1y ago
its a 501c3 with no shares. please tell me how its the same?

rubenvanwyk 1y ago

I referenced the article with hesitation for the same reason, don't think the position the critique takes is great. Interestingly, this article pops up first page if you search "htmx vs datastar".

rpdillon 1y ago

It's more like the mouse saying fuck you to the trap holding the cheese. It's not that the mouse isn't grateful for the free cheese. It's just the mouse understands the surrounding context.

nchmy 1y ago
except the trap isnt actually set, and there's a mound of cheese next to it anyway

bccdee 1y ago

> Saying "fuck you" to someone who gave you something amazing for free, because he's not giving you as much as you want for free I don't have a problem, on principle, with paywalling new features. I don't like it, but I don't think it's bad behaviour. Putting up a paywall around features that were previously free, however, I do take issue with. It's deceptive and it's not common practice. It tricks people into becoming invested and then holds hostage the features that they've become invested in using. Frankly, fuck that.

sudodevnull 1y ago
[flagged]
- gwd 1y ago
  I'm normally not one to discourage anyone from open-source; but if toxic entitlement is going to get you this worked up, you might consider whether it's really your thing. The more successful you are the more you're going to encounter.