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There's plenty worth criticizing about Apple, but you didn't even mention radar:// 1) "Social Experiences" - Ping failed where... who succeeded? 2) "Data Harv

There's plenty worth criticizing about Apple, but you didn't even mention radar:// 1) "Social Experiences" - Ping failed where... who succeeded? 2) "Data Harvesting and Search" - These are two terms that are either exactly the same, or extremely different. Neither points at a clear criticism. You realize Apple pioneered desktop search, right? 3) "Data synchronization" - Where's the problem, exactly? Is there any company other than Dropbox that can claim the crown for this? Do you know how hard this is? Who is third place after Apple's second? 4) "and Security" - Again. Huh? 5) I'm terribly sorry you had a software failure and only had a single solitary backup of 8GB of your vital that was difficult to retrieve when Apple was clearly spiking 8 petabytes of traffic in one day. In this clearly entirely hypothetical scenario you've invented. I hate defending the only company that finally brought UNIX to the desktop just because I happen to wear designer glasses.

saurik 14y ago
1) Many other companies have succeeded at getting social to work: Ping did not; do you use Ping? I explicitly go into the story with regards to Ping. I know of no one who considers Ping a success. http://www.powayiliad.com/2011/01/itunes-ping-an-apple-failure/ http://www.powayiliad.com/2011/01/itunes-ping-an-apple-failu... http://www.buzzfeed.com/scott/ping-fail-5-reasons-to-avoid-joining-apples-soci http://www.buzzfeed.com/scott/ping-fail-5-reasons-to-avoid-j... Even Apple considers Ping a failure, so I'm really not certain where you are trying to go with your argument. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/apple-declares-ping-failure-remove-software-184828124.html http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/apple-declares-p... 2) Apple is fairly good at doing things on the desktop, however their server work leaves much to be desired: the way they attempt to rank search results in their various online store fronts is a commonly cited example of this. I have explicitly been told by people at Apple "we are not server people" when reporting issues. (Also, "harvesting" is the collection of data, and "search" is the process of finding data you need in the massive pile you have collected: these are orthogonal concepts.) 3) There are so many issues with this that there is a small industry surrounding tools and teaching people hacks to make this work correctly; I'm kind of assuming you have sufficient context in the Apple community to know much about the specific issues, which is why I felt it was perfectly acceptable to just list "known failures" rather than having to say "this is how why this one failed". http://www.maclife.com/article/howtos/how_solve_all_your_mobileme_sync_problems http://www.maclife.com/article/howtos/how_solve_all_your_mob... http://www.cultofmac.com/82971/how-to-fix-mobileme-sync-problems-macrx/ http://www.cultofmac.com/82971/how-to-fix-mobileme-sync-prob... http://www.google.com/search?q=+site:discussions.apple.com+mobileme+sync+issues http://www.google.com/search?q=+site:discussions.apple.com+m... (12,600 results) 4) You realize who you are talking to, right? Do I really need to defend this? The sheer fact that I have been, for years, operating what is probably the largest private-sector man-in-the-middle attack ever (many tens of millions of devices worldwide, literally billions of stored signature blobs), on Apple's products, an attack that would be trivially solvable by techniques literally taught in intro-level encryption classes, should be sufficient (but of course when you do what I do you have tons of stories to tell). 5) I haven't had this happen to me, as I don't use iCloud: this has happened to numerous other people, however. Here is one example user (of many), from May, with the non-saurik names changed: --- Day changed Tue May 29 2012 01:04:34 <xxx> this iCloud shit is getting ridiculous 01:04:59 <saurik> xxx: ? 01:05:16 <xxx> saurik: I upgraded my phone, but my iCloud backup was 7GB, i've spent the last two days straight trying to restore it 01:05:38 <xxx> (if the download is interrupted for one second, it fails, and there is no download resume or anything similar or way to download to iTunes or anything) 01:05:50 <xxx> and on my slow internet, 7GB takes about 13 hours to download 01:06:10 <saurik> ouch 01:06:20 <lmrpq> I backup everything minus the Camera Roll, so my backups stay small. If I update, I use iTunes for a one off backup/restore. 01:06:56 <xxx> yeah; i should have disabled the camera roll 01:07:33 <xxx> saurik: I don't think it fails if the screen doesn't turn off, so right now I'm sitting with it for the ~9 remaining hours on my 7th attempt tapping the screen. 01:07:35 <lmrpq> However, the backup I made before upgrading to 5.1.1 turned out to be corrupt (wtf?) so I had to restore from iCloud minus Camera Roll. 01:07:46 <xxx> lmrpq: how do you restore minus camera roll?? 01:07:50 <xxx> oh, iTunes backup 01:08:02 <xxx> i want to restore from iCloud without camera roll, for maybe ~500mb 01:08:08 <lmrpq> No, my iCloud backups don't have camera roll, so I had to do that 01:08:12 <xxx> hmm 01:08:15 <lmrpq> I was not happy. 01:08:19 <xxx> maybe i could finish setup 01:08:20 <xxx> jailbreak it 01:08:26 <xxx> remove the "setup finished" flag 01:08:32 <xxx> hook into the setup script 01:08:41 <xxx> skip parts of the download 01:08:45 <xxx> :< 01:09:25 <xxx> hmm maybe i could also go somewhere with > 10mbps internet 01:09:37 <lmrpq> Apple has a lot of money. I wish they put some of it into making stellar cloud services. 01:11:18 <saurik> xxx: what kind of device? 01:13:03 <saurik> ah, I'm going to resume 4S? (as you said iphone) 01:13:47 <xxx> yaeh 01:13:55 <saurik> I guess its time for the drinking bird --- Day changed Wed May 30 2012 00:07:33 <xxx> iCloud restore failed. 00:07:37 <xxx> :( 00:07:42 <xxx> time to start again! The best part of the entire report (which you will note was still plaguing this user a day later, as near the end the timestamps reset for May 30th): 00:42:52 <xxx> all i really want is my chrono trigger save game :(
- blub 14y ago
  I don't know what you've used for search and replace, but in some cases you have obscured the "saurik names" and left the "non-saurik names" as clear text. :)
  - saurik 14y ago
    ? "xxx" and "lmrpq" (my failed attempt at "lmnop") are not the users' actual names. I know the names of the two users involved, and neither of them are present in the text. (I have also been sitting here re-reading the block over and over again, as I tend to do after I post any comment on HN for about ten minutes, looking for typos or other mistakes, and have not found any with respect to the name changes in that giant block of transcript.) Maybe the format of a message is confusing? Each line is "timestamp <from> message", with the convention that people use a colon to do a targeted address; were I talking to you, the message might be "12:00:00 <saurik> blub: this is my message". HN then collapsed it to a single massive line, and I figured that the contents was sufficiently unimportant that that was better not to expand into an equally-massive vertical wall of text.
- dvanduzer 14y ago
  1) Which companies succeeded at "getting social to work?" Facebook? 2) Okay. I've tried to buy large numbers of servers from Apple in the past. They really aren't server people, it's true. I was trying to buy these servers because I was working for a company whose primary business is searching through petabytes of data. Apple was and still is kicking the shit out of everyone with Spotlight. 3) I'm not saying there have never been bugs in any of Apple's data synchronization software, but Dropbox is the only company doing a better job. 4) I guess I don't realize who I'm talking to. Apple has a great reputation when it comes to malicious code. Until I finish posting this and get to researching your history, I'm going to assume you're behind jailbreakme, or similar. Thanks! Great job! Really, it's hard for me not to come off as hypocritical here, but that kind of work is incredibly valuable. 5) Eh, I have difficulty garnering sympathy for anyone complaining on IRC about ~160KB download speeds for downloading their personal backup from Apple while Apple is also distributing iOS6 binaries to at least 15 million devices or so (based on napkin math derived from here: http://allthingsd.com/20120920/usage-of-apples-ios-6-hits-staggering-levels-on-first-day-of-availability/ http://allthingsd.com/20120920/usage-of-apples-ios-6-hits-st...) You're not wrong about Apple's hubris in general. These are just bad examples.
danieldk 14y ago
5) I'm terribly sorry you had a software failure and only had a single solitary backup of 8GB of your vital that was difficult to retrieve when Apple was clearly spiking 8 petabytes of traffic in one day. Let me give another example where iCloud fails: iTunes in the Cloud and iTunes Match. I'm regularly unable to download or stream certain songs for days. I can play the rest of the album fine, but one or two songs, you cannot play nor download. Sometimes, I cannot access my matched music at all. iTunes will do an iTunes Match update, which fails for some reason, and then suddenly all songs are greyed out. Usually, a match update will only succeed after a few hours of trying. During that time I can only play music that is locally available. Match is a big mess and I will probably not renew it after a year.
napierzaza 14y ago
I think that the point really is that Apple has been missing the mark in a lot of ways. That they create products that are half-baked or too buggy. 1) What about Ping was interesting? Though in general I think that it was an attempt that they didn't exactly bet the company on. 2,4,5) I agree with you 3) Implementing iCloud is really annoying. I tried for weeks and now I just think I won't bother. It was released for iOS 5 but an Apple Engineer told me not to implement iCloud+CoreData under 5.1.1. And iOS 6 introduces methods that are pretty much required anyway. So basically they introduced it while it was incomplete and buggy. It's frustrating for the user because no one is using this amazing feature and if they are...
7952 14y ago
ITunes is also terrible.
potatolicious 14y ago
> "1) "Social Experiences" - Ping failed where... who succeeded?" Facebook + Spotify. I actually see people sharing the music they listen to. Not to mention, it is indeed very possible to fail without someone else succeeding - i.e., launching a product nobody ever wanted (say, Ping). > "You realize Apple pioneered desktop search, right?" And now the competition is much better than they are. Your point? > "Where's the problem, exactly?" iCloud. Have you written an iCloud-enabled app recently? I was in the iCloud session at this year's WWDC, and damn that was a tense session - developers approached this session with "hopefully this shit finally works", because iCloud up until that point was broken, and still largely is. If you look behind Apple's hyperbolic claims and actually look at the API and work with it, you will realize iCloud is pretty much loosely held together by string. It breaks often, the API is obtuse and more or less undocumented, and there are very few ways to look under the hood when it does break, even while in dev, much less production. Apple really, really sucks at data synchronization. Here's an interesting test: take an iCloud-enabled app, go into your settings and delete the app's cloud data. You would expect this to delete your data and let you start fresh right? But nope, none of your devices associated with this Apple account can ever use iCloud with this app again.

saurik 14y ago

1) Many other companies have succeeded at getting social to work: Ping did not; do you use Ping? I explicitly go into the story with regards to Ping. I know of no one who considers Ping a success. http://www.powayiliad.com/2011/01/itunes-ping-an-apple-failure/ http://www.powayiliad.com/2011/01/itunes-ping-an-apple-failu... http://www.buzzfeed.com/scott/ping-fail-5-reasons-to-avoid-joining-apples-soci http://www.buzzfeed.com/scott/ping-fail-5-reasons-to-avoid-j... Even Apple considers Ping a failure, so I'm really not certain where you are trying to go with your argument. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/apple-declares-ping-failure-remove-software-184828124.html http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/apple-declares-p... 2) Apple is fairly good at doing things on the desktop, however their server work leaves much to be desired: the way they attempt to rank search results in their various online store fronts is a commonly cited example of this. I have explicitly been told by people at Apple "we are not server people" when reporting issues. (Also, "harvesting" is the collection of data, and "search" is the process of finding data you need in the massive pile you have collected: these are orthogonal concepts.) 3) There are so many issues with this that there is a small industry surrounding tools and teaching people hacks to make this work correctly; I'm kind of assuming you have sufficient context in the Apple community to know much about the specific issues, which is why I felt it was perfectly acceptable to just list "known failures" rather than having to say "this is how why this one failed". http://www.maclife.com/article/howtos/how_solve_all_your_mobileme_sync_problems http://www.maclife.com/article/howtos/how_solve_all_your_mob... http://www.cultofmac.com/82971/how-to-fix-mobileme-sync-problems-macrx/ http://www.cultofmac.com/82971/how-to-fix-mobileme-sync-prob... http://www.google.com/search?q=+site:discussions.apple.com+mobileme+sync+issues http://www.google.com/search?q=+site:discussions.apple.com+m... (12,600 results) 4) You realize who you are talking to, right? Do I really need to defend this? The sheer fact that I have been, for years, operating what is probably the largest private-sector man-in-the-middle attack ever (many tens of millions of devices worldwide, literally billions of stored signature blobs), on Apple's products, an attack that would be trivially solvable by techniques literally taught in intro-level encryption classes, should be sufficient (but of course when you do what I do you have tons of stories to tell). 5) I haven't had this happen to me, as I don't use iCloud: this has happened to numerous other people, however. Here is one example user (of many), from May, with the non-saurik names changed: --- Day changed Tue May 29 2012 01:04:34 <xxx> this iCloud shit is getting ridiculous 01:04:59 <saurik> xxx: ? 01:05:16 <xxx> saurik: I upgraded my phone, but my iCloud backup was 7GB, i've spent the last two days straight trying to restore it 01:05:38 <xxx> (if the download is interrupted for one second, it fails, and there is no download resume or anything similar or way to download to iTunes or anything) 01:05:50 <xxx> and on my slow internet, 7GB takes about 13 hours to download 01:06:10 <saurik> ouch 01:06:20 <lmrpq> I backup everything minus the Camera Roll, so my backups stay small. If I update, I use iTunes for a one off backup/restore. 01:06:56 <xxx> yeah; i should have disabled the camera roll 01:07:33 <xxx> saurik: I don't think it fails if the screen doesn't turn off, so right now I'm sitting with it for the ~9 remaining hours on my 7th attempt tapping the screen. 01:07:35 <lmrpq> However, the backup I made before upgrading to 5.1.1 turned out to be corrupt (wtf?) so I had to restore from iCloud minus Camera Roll. 01:07:46 <xxx> lmrpq: how do you restore minus camera roll?? 01:07:50 <xxx> oh, iTunes backup 01:08:02 <xxx> i want to restore from iCloud without camera roll, for maybe ~500mb 01:08:08 <lmrpq> No, my iCloud backups don't have camera roll, so I had to do that 01:08:12 <xxx> hmm 01:08:15 <lmrpq> I was not happy. 01:08:19 <xxx> maybe i could finish setup 01:08:20 <xxx> jailbreak it 01:08:26 <xxx> remove the "setup finished" flag 01:08:32 <xxx> hook into the setup script 01:08:41 <xxx> skip parts of the download 01:08:45 <xxx> :< 01:09:25 <xxx> hmm maybe i could also go somewhere with > 10mbps internet 01:09:37 <lmrpq> Apple has a lot of money. I wish they put some of it into making stellar cloud services. 01:11:18 <saurik> xxx: what kind of device? 01:13:03 <saurik> ah, I'm going to resume 4S? (as you said iphone) 01:13:47 <xxx> yaeh 01:13:55 <saurik> I guess its time for the drinking bird --- Day changed Wed May 30 2012 00:07:33 <xxx> iCloud restore failed. 00:07:37 <xxx> :( 00:07:42 <xxx> time to start again! The best part of the entire report (which you will note was still plaguing this user a day later, as near the end the timestamps reset for May 30th): 00:42:52 <xxx> all i really want is my chrono trigger save game :(

blub 14y ago
I don't know what you've used for search and replace, but in some cases you have obscured the "saurik names" and left the "non-saurik names" as clear text. :)
- saurik 14y ago
  ? "xxx" and "lmrpq" (my failed attempt at "lmnop") are not the users' actual names. I know the names of the two users involved, and neither of them are present in the text. (I have also been sitting here re-reading the block over and over again, as I tend to do after I post any comment on HN for about ten minutes, looking for typos or other mistakes, and have not found any with respect to the name changes in that giant block of transcript.) Maybe the format of a message is confusing? Each line is "timestamp <from> message", with the convention that people use a colon to do a targeted address; were I talking to you, the message might be "12:00:00 <saurik> blub: this is my message". HN then collapsed it to a single massive line, and I figured that the contents was sufficiently unimportant that that was better not to expand into an equally-massive vertical wall of text.
dvanduzer 14y ago
1) Which companies succeeded at "getting social to work?" Facebook? 2) Okay. I've tried to buy large numbers of servers from Apple in the past. They really aren't server people, it's true. I was trying to buy these servers because I was working for a company whose primary business is searching through petabytes of data. Apple was and still is kicking the shit out of everyone with Spotlight. 3) I'm not saying there have never been bugs in any of Apple's data synchronization software, but Dropbox is the only company doing a better job. 4) I guess I don't realize who I'm talking to. Apple has a great reputation when it comes to malicious code. Until I finish posting this and get to researching your history, I'm going to assume you're behind jailbreakme, or similar. Thanks! Great job! Really, it's hard for me not to come off as hypocritical here, but that kind of work is incredibly valuable. 5) Eh, I have difficulty garnering sympathy for anyone complaining on IRC about ~160KB download speeds for downloading their personal backup from Apple while Apple is also distributing iOS6 binaries to at least 15 million devices or so (based on napkin math derived from here: http://allthingsd.com/20120920/usage-of-apples-ios-6-hits-staggering-levels-on-first-day-of-availability/ http://allthingsd.com/20120920/usage-of-apples-ios-6-hits-st...) You're not wrong about Apple's hubris in general. These are just bad examples.

danieldk 14y ago

5) I'm terribly sorry you had a software failure and only had a single solitary backup of 8GB of your vital that was difficult to retrieve when Apple was clearly spiking 8 petabytes of traffic in one day. Let me give another example where iCloud fails: iTunes in the Cloud and iTunes Match. I'm regularly unable to download or stream certain songs for days. I can play the rest of the album fine, but one or two songs, you cannot play nor download. Sometimes, I cannot access my matched music at all. iTunes will do an iTunes Match update, which fails for some reason, and then suddenly all songs are greyed out. Usually, a match update will only succeed after a few hours of trying. During that time I can only play music that is locally available. Match is a big mess and I will probably not renew it after a year.

napierzaza 14y ago

I think that the point really is that Apple has been missing the mark in a lot of ways. That they create products that are half-baked or too buggy. 1) What about Ping was interesting? Though in general I think that it was an attempt that they didn't exactly bet the company on. 2,4,5) I agree with you 3) Implementing iCloud is really annoying. I tried for weeks and now I just think I won't bother. It was released for iOS 5 but an Apple Engineer told me not to implement iCloud+CoreData under 5.1.1. And iOS 6 introduces methods that are pretty much required anyway. So basically they introduced it while it was incomplete and buggy. It's frustrating for the user because no one is using this amazing feature and if they are...

7952 14y ago

ITunes is also terrible.

potatolicious 14y ago

> "1) "Social Experiences" - Ping failed where... who succeeded?" Facebook + Spotify. I actually see people sharing the music they listen to. Not to mention, it is indeed very possible to fail without someone else succeeding - i.e., launching a product nobody ever wanted (say, Ping). > "You realize Apple pioneered desktop search, right?" And now the competition is much better than they are. Your point? > "Where's the problem, exactly?" iCloud. Have you written an iCloud-enabled app recently? I was in the iCloud session at this year's WWDC, and damn that was a tense session - developers approached this session with "hopefully this shit finally works", because iCloud up until that point was broken, and still largely is. If you look behind Apple's hyperbolic claims and actually look at the API and work with it, you will realize iCloud is pretty much loosely held together by string. It breaks often, the API is obtuse and more or less undocumented, and there are very few ways to look under the hood when it does break, even while in dev, much less production. Apple really, really sucks at data synchronization. Here's an interesting test: take an iCloud-enabled app, go into your settings and delete the app's cloud data. You would expect this to delete your data and let you start fresh right? But nope, none of your devices associated with this Apple account can ever use iCloud with this app again.