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>People just don't value it as highly as they claim they do. Whatever. Change it to "city infrastructure heavily incentivizing people to drive everywhere by h

>People just don't value it as highly as they claim they do. Whatever. Change it to "city infrastructure heavily incentivizing people to drive everywhere by heavily penalizing all other modes of transportation and prioritizing automobiles and accommodating the needs of car drivers above everything else". When the cities are designed for cars with everything else being an afterthought, people are going to driver everywhere.

paulcole 1y ago
> When the cities are designed for cars with everything else being an afterthought, people are going to driver everywhere. Not if they really hate driving and want to live differently! You can say you're a victim of circumstance or you can say I care a lot about something and have more control over your life. I'm biased because I'm 45 and have never driven a car in my life. I grew up in a very rural area in Florida, went to a big state college, and then moved to Portland, OR because it was a decent place to live without a car. I knew from a very young age that driving a car seemed like a dumb way to live and so wondered why everyone did it and why nobody decided to try something different?
- alterom 1y ago
  >You can say you're a victim of circumstance or you can say I care a lot about something and have more control over your life. >I'm biased because I'm 45 and have never driven a car in my life. I learned to drive when I was 24-25, after moving to Texas for graduate school, and cycling everywhere for a year. I cycled ~3 miles for groceries. I hauled an upright vacuum cleaner ~4 miles on a bicycle. And a bar stool. You really can't blame me for not trying hard to avoid driving. You can't blame me for, say, wanting to go to a movie theater, which was less than a mile away... by highway frontage, where cars would go 60mph. You can't blame me for wanting to see places other than College Station, TX, when I was living there (despite the name, there isn't a station there, and hasn't been for the past 100 years or so). And you can't blame for wanting to fucking live, after a good friend of mine was mauled down by an SUV when he, a non-driver, got out into the street in Long Island on roller blades. Several were hit by cars while cycling (non-lethally, thankfully). At least one by a driver who was looking left (into the oncoming traffic) while making a right turn, and ignored what's literally in front of his car. > then moved to Portland, OR because it was a decent place to live without a car. My friend, not everyone has the choice to move to a handful of metro areas in the US where living without a car isn't a pain. I'm glad you have the means and the resources. I didn't, and still don't; Silicon Valley is where the jobs are for me. And it's not a great place to be at without a vehicle - and I say that even as I do use an e-bike for short runs. After all is said and done, my quality of life has gone up tremendously after getting a car. And that's why it's not a me-problem.
  - paulcole 1y ago
    > You really can't blame me for not trying hard to avoid driving. This isn’t about “blame” (a word I never used). This is simply about what people choose to do. > not everyone has the choice to move to a handful of metro areas in the US where living without a car isn't a pain. I'm glad you have the means and the resources. I never earned more than $35,000 a year until I was into my 30s. I knew my life was going to be different if I wanted not drive so I made different decisions (some would call these sacrifices but I do not). I lived in a low-income studio apartment in Portland, for example. My life is not a life that everyone wants! But it is a lifestyle in which not driving is accessible to more people than those with what you believe to be “means and resources.” All I did was think driving was really really stupid and made decisions to avoid it. This shows that it mattered a lot to me. It not mattering as much to other people is not a bad thing or a thing to “blame” someone for. I just won’t take anyone seriously who says they want to drive less or who says they hate driving but then proceeds to change their behavior not at all. > my quality of life has gone up tremendously after getting a car Fantastic! So then why would you care about driving less (or not at all). It seems like you’re saying that if you drove less (or not at all) your life would get worse? I’m not sure what your point is or why you’d take such offense at my comment if you ended up making a decision that you believe made your life better?
    - alterom 1y ago
      Being able to afford to move somewhere isn't only about the money. Family, friends, support networks, availability of employment, and a million other factors apply. Glad you had the opportunity. For me, moving to a walkable neighborhood would've amounted to ditching graduate school (where I spent 7-8 years of my life). For my friend who divorced and had shared custody of his son, it would amount to giving up his child. Put simply, your solution doesn't scale, and it's not about how much someone cares about not driving. Moving is simply not an option for everyone, period. Might as well say "don't like driving? Just immigrate to Europe". My point here is that I want to be able to not drive where I live. My point is that I'm sad that my quality of life would drop if I were to give up driving. My point is that it's not about me, or how much I care. I can think that driving is stupid, but if it means I'm spending 1 hour on daily commute instead of 4 in the metro area where I ended up living, you bet I'll do the stupid thing, as will everyone else. My point here is that making the entirety of the 340 million Americans care about not driving, and making them think it's stupid won't change a thing because objectively it is the only viable option for surviving in most of this country. My point here is that shifting the attention from what is very clearly an infrastructure problem to people who are the victims of the decisions made by governments (like subsidizing highways but not public transportation and urban rail) is a distraction, a red herring, and is helping to perpetuate the problem, not solve it. And I care about reliance on driving for a million reasons that aren't about me, from social to environment concerns and to the goddamn subject of this discussion — pedestrian fatalities. A friend of mine was killed by an SUV driver, so it's also personal for me, but I cared before that too — and I'd hope that people could have basic empathy and care even if it does not apply to them personally. So yes, the choice to drive in the US was a great one for me. Just like doing what a person with a gun tells you to do would be a very sensible choice. Glad you were able to run away from the problem. This does not solve it.

paulcole 1y ago

> When the cities are designed for cars with everything else being an afterthought, people are going to driver everywhere. Not if they really hate driving and want to live differently! You can say you're a victim of circumstance or you can say I care a lot about something and have more control over your life. I'm biased because I'm 45 and have never driven a car in my life. I grew up in a very rural area in Florida, went to a big state college, and then moved to Portland, OR because it was a decent place to live without a car. I knew from a very young age that driving a car seemed like a dumb way to live and so wondered why everyone did it and why nobody decided to try something different?

alterom 1y ago
>You can say you're a victim of circumstance or you can say I care a lot about something and have more control over your life. >I'm biased because I'm 45 and have never driven a car in my life. I learned to drive when I was 24-25, after moving to Texas for graduate school, and cycling everywhere for a year. I cycled ~3 miles for groceries. I hauled an upright vacuum cleaner ~4 miles on a bicycle. And a bar stool. You really can't blame me for not trying hard to avoid driving. You can't blame me for, say, wanting to go to a movie theater, which was less than a mile away... by highway frontage, where cars would go 60mph. You can't blame me for wanting to see places other than College Station, TX, when I was living there (despite the name, there isn't a station there, and hasn't been for the past 100 years or so). And you can't blame for wanting to fucking live, after a good friend of mine was mauled down by an SUV when he, a non-driver, got out into the street in Long Island on roller blades. Several were hit by cars while cycling (non-lethally, thankfully). At least one by a driver who was looking left (into the oncoming traffic) while making a right turn, and ignored what's literally in front of his car. > then moved to Portland, OR because it was a decent place to live without a car. My friend, not everyone has the choice to move to a handful of metro areas in the US where living without a car isn't a pain. I'm glad you have the means and the resources. I didn't, and still don't; Silicon Valley is where the jobs are for me. And it's not a great place to be at without a vehicle - and I say that even as I do use an e-bike for short runs. After all is said and done, my quality of life has gone up tremendously after getting a car. And that's why it's not a me-problem.
- paulcole 1y ago
  > You really can't blame me for not trying hard to avoid driving. This isn’t about “blame” (a word I never used). This is simply about what people choose to do. > not everyone has the choice to move to a handful of metro areas in the US where living without a car isn't a pain. I'm glad you have the means and the resources. I never earned more than $35,000 a year until I was into my 30s. I knew my life was going to be different if I wanted not drive so I made different decisions (some would call these sacrifices but I do not). I lived in a low-income studio apartment in Portland, for example. My life is not a life that everyone wants! But it is a lifestyle in which not driving is accessible to more people than those with what you believe to be “means and resources.” All I did was think driving was really really stupid and made decisions to avoid it. This shows that it mattered a lot to me. It not mattering as much to other people is not a bad thing or a thing to “blame” someone for. I just won’t take anyone seriously who says they want to drive less or who says they hate driving but then proceeds to change their behavior not at all. > my quality of life has gone up tremendously after getting a car Fantastic! So then why would you care about driving less (or not at all). It seems like you’re saying that if you drove less (or not at all) your life would get worse? I’m not sure what your point is or why you’d take such offense at my comment if you ended up making a decision that you believe made your life better?
  - alterom 1y ago
    Being able to afford to move somewhere isn't only about the money. Family, friends, support networks, availability of employment, and a million other factors apply. Glad you had the opportunity. For me, moving to a walkable neighborhood would've amounted to ditching graduate school (where I spent 7-8 years of my life). For my friend who divorced and had shared custody of his son, it would amount to giving up his child. Put simply, your solution doesn't scale, and it's not about how much someone cares about not driving. Moving is simply not an option for everyone, period. Might as well say "don't like driving? Just immigrate to Europe". My point here is that I want to be able to not drive where I live. My point is that I'm sad that my quality of life would drop if I were to give up driving. My point is that it's not about me, or how much I care. I can think that driving is stupid, but if it means I'm spending 1 hour on daily commute instead of 4 in the metro area where I ended up living, you bet I'll do the stupid thing, as will everyone else. My point here is that making the entirety of the 340 million Americans care about not driving, and making them think it's stupid won't change a thing because objectively it is the only viable option for surviving in most of this country. My point here is that shifting the attention from what is very clearly an infrastructure problem to people who are the victims of the decisions made by governments (like subsidizing highways but not public transportation and urban rail) is a distraction, a red herring, and is helping to perpetuate the problem, not solve it. And I care about reliance on driving for a million reasons that aren't about me, from social to environment concerns and to the goddamn subject of this discussion — pedestrian fatalities. A friend of mine was killed by an SUV driver, so it's also personal for me, but I cared before that too — and I'd hope that people could have basic empathy and care even if it does not apply to them personally. So yes, the choice to drive in the US was a great one for me. Just like doing what a person with a gun tells you to do would be a very sensible choice. Glad you were able to run away from the problem. This does not solve it.