3 ms·

> Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem. Not being for profit doesn

> Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem. Not being for profit doesn't mean you don't pay people. Further, I wonder how the Sixth Amendment works then? So many non-profit people working for... no money? This "work for no money argument" is so incredibly weak, I had to make sure I quoted the argument so the person wouldn't change it.

philipallstar 1y ago
Eventually everyone works for profit if they get paid. Spending time only is pure profit in money.
- iamnothere 1y ago
  A reasonable wage or salary isn’t usually considered “profit” in a legal sense. This is why nonprofits can still pay employees. Any money that is left over after costs (including wages/salaries) needs to be reinvested, spent on the organizational mission, or held for future use, not distributed through dividends or other distributions as in a for-profit enterprise.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > reasonable wage or salary isn’t usually considered “profit” in a legal sense This is a semantic punt to the word “reasonable.”
    - iamnothere 1y ago
      The IRS has some guidelines that they use to decide what is “reasonable” but they don’t give out whatever actual formula or process they use to determine this. It’s supposed to be based on industry averages (more or less) but in reality it’s hard to determine what exactly that means. Generally you are “safe” paying in an industry average range, but if outside that range you need legal and accounting support to back up your own assessment.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > you are “safe” paying in an industry average range, but if outside that range you need legal and accounting support to back up your own assessment What? The IRS doesn’t regulate wages. They just care about getting their money. If I pay you $10bn a year to yell at my cat, the IRS is fine so long as I pay payroll and you income taxes.
        iamnothere 1y ago
        Actually as a nonprofit you are required to pay at or below a reasonable wage/salary or you may face sanctions: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-determine-reasonable-compensation-nonprofit-key-employees.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-determine-reason... Similarly as an S Corp (maybe other corp types too) then officers must take at or above a reasonable wage/salary to limit the tax advantage: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-08-25.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-08-25.pdf This is intended to prevent people from, for instance, setting up a “nonprofit” where they just funnel all gains into their pocket while gaining all the other tax benefits of being a nonprofit. You can’t overpay people, you can’t engage in transactions where you intentionally overpay a supplier for materials/services and then they compensate you for the extra amount, etc.
  - hibikir 1y ago
    Have you spent much time looking inside non profits? A lot of hospitals in the US are non profits. Some are part of non profit universities too. This in no way leads to superior cost controls, or those universities being cheap. What it does mean is that they get some significant tax advantages (for instance, no property taxes), and that there's fewer optimization incentives. When you limit yourself to the US definition of a non profit company, it doesn't make care better or cheaper.
    - iamnothere 1y ago
      Studies have shown both a decrease in care outcomes and higher costs for private hospitals: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC419772/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC419772/ https://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2002/05/5712.html https://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2002/05/5712.html
  - philipallstar 1y ago
    I'm not saying profit in that sense. I'm just saying that it's monetary profit all the way down when it comes to paid work. People work for profit. People invest for profit. People bet for profit.
    - iamnothere 1y ago
      The person you were replying to seemed to be discussing profit in the sense of tax law, not whether or not people should be paid at all. I don’t think anyone here is saying that doctors should not be paid.
- OkayPhysicist 1y ago
  Most people do not profit off their labor. 2/3rds of people are living paycheck to paycheck, which means that they are being paid approximately the same amount that their labor costs to produce. That makes their wages an exchange of equal value, and thus not profitable.
  - philipallstar 1y ago
    > which means that they are being paid approximately the same amount that their labor costs to produce No, "living paycheck to paycheck" means you're spending everything you get each month. There can be all sorts of reasons for that. > That makes their wages an exchange of equal value, and thus not profitable. This is true for all profit. If you lend me money and profit off the interest, we've decided between us that the time value of that money is worth that interest, and so it's an exchange of equal value.
    - OkayPhysicist 1y ago
      If a business makes $50,000 in revenue, and has $50,000 in costs, we don't say that business turned a profit. If a person makes $50,000 in revenue, but has $50,000 in costs, we tax them as if they profited $50,000.
- jasonlotito 1y ago
  I like how you ignored the entire point and lied about what I said.

philipallstar 1y ago

Eventually everyone works for profit if they get paid. Spending time only is pure profit in money.

iamnothere 1y ago
A reasonable wage or salary isn’t usually considered “profit” in a legal sense. This is why nonprofits can still pay employees. Any money that is left over after costs (including wages/salaries) needs to be reinvested, spent on the organizational mission, or held for future use, not distributed through dividends or other distributions as in a for-profit enterprise.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > reasonable wage or salary isn’t usually considered “profit” in a legal sense This is a semantic punt to the word “reasonable.”
  - iamnothere 1y ago
    The IRS has some guidelines that they use to decide what is “reasonable” but they don’t give out whatever actual formula or process they use to determine this. It’s supposed to be based on industry averages (more or less) but in reality it’s hard to determine what exactly that means. Generally you are “safe” paying in an industry average range, but if outside that range you need legal and accounting support to back up your own assessment.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > you are “safe” paying in an industry average range, but if outside that range you need legal and accounting support to back up your own assessment What? The IRS doesn’t regulate wages. They just care about getting their money. If I pay you $10bn a year to yell at my cat, the IRS is fine so long as I pay payroll and you income taxes.
      - iamnothere 1y ago
        Actually as a nonprofit you are required to pay at or below a reasonable wage/salary or you may face sanctions: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-determine-reasonable-compensation-nonprofit-key-employees.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-determine-reason... Similarly as an S Corp (maybe other corp types too) then officers must take at or above a reasonable wage/salary to limit the tax advantage: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-08-25.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/fs-08-25.pdf This is intended to prevent people from, for instance, setting up a “nonprofit” where they just funnel all gains into their pocket while gaining all the other tax benefits of being a nonprofit. You can’t overpay people, you can’t engage in transactions where you intentionally overpay a supplier for materials/services and then they compensate you for the extra amount, etc.
- hibikir 1y ago
  Have you spent much time looking inside non profits? A lot of hospitals in the US are non profits. Some are part of non profit universities too. This in no way leads to superior cost controls, or those universities being cheap. What it does mean is that they get some significant tax advantages (for instance, no property taxes), and that there's fewer optimization incentives. When you limit yourself to the US definition of a non profit company, it doesn't make care better or cheaper.
  - iamnothere 1y ago
    Studies have shown both a decrease in care outcomes and higher costs for private hospitals: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC419772/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC419772/ https://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2002/05/5712.html https://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2002/05/5712.html
- philipallstar 1y ago
  I'm not saying profit in that sense. I'm just saying that it's monetary profit all the way down when it comes to paid work. People work for profit. People invest for profit. People bet for profit.
  - iamnothere 1y ago
    The person you were replying to seemed to be discussing profit in the sense of tax law, not whether or not people should be paid at all. I don’t think anyone here is saying that doctors should not be paid.
OkayPhysicist 1y ago
Most people do not profit off their labor. 2/3rds of people are living paycheck to paycheck, which means that they are being paid approximately the same amount that their labor costs to produce. That makes their wages an exchange of equal value, and thus not profitable.
- philipallstar 1y ago
  > which means that they are being paid approximately the same amount that their labor costs to produce No, "living paycheck to paycheck" means you're spending everything you get each month. There can be all sorts of reasons for that. > That makes their wages an exchange of equal value, and thus not profitable. This is true for all profit. If you lend me money and profit off the interest, we've decided between us that the time value of that money is worth that interest, and so it's an exchange of equal value.
  - OkayPhysicist 1y ago
    If a business makes $50,000 in revenue, and has $50,000 in costs, we don't say that business turned a profit. If a person makes $50,000 in revenue, but has $50,000 in costs, we tax them as if they profited $50,000.
jasonlotito 1y ago
I like how you ignored the entire point and lied about what I said.