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> I wanted it to refactor a parser in a small project This expression tree parser (typescript to sql query builder - https://tinqerjs.org/ https://tinqerjs.org

by jeswin 1y ago

> I wanted it to refactor a parser in a small project This expression tree parser (typescript to sql query builder - https://tinqerjs.org/ https://tinqerjs.org/) has zero lines of hand-written code. It was made with Codex + Claude over two weeks (part-time on the side). Having worked on ORMs previously, it would have taken me 4x-10x the time to get to the same state (which also has 100s of tests, with some repetitions). That's a massive saving in time. I did not have to baby sit the LLMs at all. So the answer is, I think it depends on what you use it for, and how you use it. Like every tool, it takes a really long time to find a process that works for you. In my conversations with other developers who use LLMs extensively, they all have their unique, custom workflows. All of them however do focus on test suites, documentation, and method review processes.

iLoveOncall 1y ago
Hum yeah, it shows. Just the fact that the API looks completely different for Postgre and SQLite tells us everything we need to know about the quality of the project here.
- jeswin 1y ago
  > Just the fact that the API looks completely different for Postgre and SQLite tells us everything we need to know about the quality of the project here. How does the API look completely different for pg and sqlite? Can you share an example? It's an implementation of LINQ's IQueryable. With some bells missing in DotNet's Queryable, like Window functions (RANK queries etc) which I find quite useful. Add: What you've mentioned is largely incorrect. But in any case, it is a query builder. Meaning, an ORM like database abstraction is not the goal. This allows us to support pg's extensions, which aren't applicable to other database.
- pprotas 1y ago
  I guess the interesting question is whether @jeswin could have created this project at all if AI tools were not involved. And if yes, would the quality even be better?
  - jeswin 1y ago
    Very true. However, to claim that the "API looks completely different for Postgre and SQLite" is disingenuous. What was he looking at?
    - tom_ 1y ago
      There are two examples on the landing page, and they both look quite different. Surely if the API is the same for both, there'd be just one example that covers both cases, or two examples would be deliberately made as identical as possible? (Like, just a different new somewhere, or different import directive at the top, and everything else exactly the same?) I think that's the point. Perhaps experienced users of relevant technologies will just be able to automatically figure this stuff out, but this is a general discussion - people not terribly familiar with any of them, but curious about what a big pile of AI code might actually look like, could get the wrong impression.
      - jeswin 1y ago
        If you're mentioning the first two examples, they're doing different things. The pg example does an orderby, and the sqlite example does a join. You'll be able to switch the client (ie, better-sqlite and pg-promise) in either statement, and the same query would work on the other database. Maybe I should use the same example repeated for clarity. Let me do that. Edit: Fixed. Thank you.
  - iLoveOncall 1y ago
    Actually the interesting question is whether this library not existing would have been a loss for humanity. I'll posit that it would not.
AllegedAlec 1y ago
I have tried several. Overall I've now set on strict TDD (which it still seems to not do unless I explicitly tell it to even though I have it as a hard requirement in claude.md).
- jeswin 1y ago
  Claude forgets claude.md after a while, so you need to keep reminding. I find that codex does a design job better than Claude at the moment, but it's 3x slower which I don't mind.
svieira 1y ago
Quite impressive, thank you for sharing! Question - this loads a 2 MB JS parser written in Rust to turn `x => x.foo` into `{ op: 'project', field: 'foo', target: 'x' }`. But you don't actually allow any complex expressions (and you certainly don't seem to recursively parse references or allow return uplift, e. g. I can't extract out `isOver18` or `isOver(age: int)(Row: IQueryable): IQueryable`). Why did you choose the AST route instead of doing the same thing with a handful of regular expressions?
- jeswin 1y ago
  Parsing code with regex is a minefield. You can get it to work with simpler cases, but even that might get complex very quickly with all sorts of formatting preferences that people have. In fact, I'll be very surprised if it can be done with a few regular expressions; so I never gave it much consideration. Additionally, improved subquery support etc is coming, involving deeper recursion. I could have allowed (I did consider it) functions external to the expression, like isOver18 in your example. But it would have come at the cost of the parser having to look across the code base, and would have required tinqerjs to attach via build-time plugins. The only other way (without plugins) might be to identify callers via Error.stack, and attempting to find the calling JS file.
TheCoelacanth 1y ago
Development tools and libraries seem like they may be one of the absolute easiest use cases to get LLMs to work with since they generally have far less ambiguous requirements than other software and the LLMs generally have an enormous amount of data in their training set to help them understand the domain.

by jeswin 1y ago

iLoveOncall 1y ago

Hum yeah, it shows. Just the fact that the API looks completely different for Postgre and SQLite tells us everything we need to know about the quality of the project here.

jeswin 1y ago
> Just the fact that the API looks completely different for Postgre and SQLite tells us everything we need to know about the quality of the project here. How does the API look completely different for pg and sqlite? Can you share an example? It's an implementation of LINQ's IQueryable. With some bells missing in DotNet's Queryable, like Window functions (RANK queries etc) which I find quite useful. Add: What you've mentioned is largely incorrect. But in any case, it is a query builder. Meaning, an ORM like database abstraction is not the goal. This allows us to support pg's extensions, which aren't applicable to other database.
pprotas 1y ago
I guess the interesting question is whether @jeswin could have created this project at all if AI tools were not involved. And if yes, would the quality even be better?
- jeswin 1y ago
  Very true. However, to claim that the "API looks completely different for Postgre and SQLite" is disingenuous. What was he looking at?
  - tom_ 1y ago
    There are two examples on the landing page, and they both look quite different. Surely if the API is the same for both, there'd be just one example that covers both cases, or two examples would be deliberately made as identical as possible? (Like, just a different new somewhere, or different import directive at the top, and everything else exactly the same?) I think that's the point. Perhaps experienced users of relevant technologies will just be able to automatically figure this stuff out, but this is a general discussion - people not terribly familiar with any of them, but curious about what a big pile of AI code might actually look like, could get the wrong impression.
    - jeswin 1y ago
      If you're mentioning the first two examples, they're doing different things. The pg example does an orderby, and the sqlite example does a join. You'll be able to switch the client (ie, better-sqlite and pg-promise) in either statement, and the same query would work on the other database. Maybe I should use the same example repeated for clarity. Let me do that. Edit: Fixed. Thank you.
- iLoveOncall 1y ago
  Actually the interesting question is whether this library not existing would have been a loss for humanity. I'll posit that it would not.

AllegedAlec 1y ago

I have tried several. Overall I've now set on strict TDD (which it still seems to not do unless I explicitly tell it to even though I have it as a hard requirement in claude.md).

jeswin 1y ago
Claude forgets claude.md after a while, so you need to keep reminding. I find that codex does a design job better than Claude at the moment, but it's 3x slower which I don't mind.

svieira 1y ago

Quite impressive, thank you for sharing! Question - this loads a 2 MB JS parser written in Rust to turn `x => x.foo` into `{ op: 'project', field: 'foo', target: 'x' }`. But you don't actually allow any complex expressions (and you certainly don't seem to recursively parse references or allow return uplift, e. g. I can't extract out `isOver18` or `isOver(age: int)(Row: IQueryable): IQueryable`). Why did you choose the AST route instead of doing the same thing with a handful of regular expressions?

jeswin 1y ago
Parsing code with regex is a minefield. You can get it to work with simpler cases, but even that might get complex very quickly with all sorts of formatting preferences that people have. In fact, I'll be very surprised if it can be done with a few regular expressions; so I never gave it much consideration. Additionally, improved subquery support etc is coming, involving deeper recursion. I could have allowed (I did consider it) functions external to the expression, like isOver18 in your example. But it would have come at the cost of the parser having to look across the code base, and would have required tinqerjs to attach via build-time plugins. The only other way (without plugins) might be to identify callers via Error.stack, and attempting to find the calling JS file.

TheCoelacanth 1y ago

Development tools and libraries seem like they may be one of the absolute easiest use cases to get LLMs to work with since they generally have far less ambiguous requirements than other software and the LLMs generally have an enormous amount of data in their training set to help them understand the domain.