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Specifically, it feels like the lack of discernment goes off the rails and falls into the chasm of derangement where people assume that their opponents do not h

Specifically, it feels like the lack of discernment goes off the rails and falls into the chasm of derangement where people assume that their opponents do not have that common goal. Anti-natalists and population control advocates excluded, most of us do share that goal. The differences are in the proposed approaches. There are legitimate discussions which can be had about those approaches to achieving that common goal. The discussion is no longer in good faith where partisans deny that common goal or assume evil intent.

weregiraffe 1y ago
What about the millions of, for example, Muslims, who have a very particular idea of what "prosperity" means? Especially for your female children.
- woooooo 1y ago
  Do fundamentalist Muslims have a realistic chance of imposing those views on your nation? Because, if not, you Fell For It Again. (Aside, every western Muslim I've personally met has been chill)
  - zpeti 1y ago
    Realistic is a very broad term, but do you think they don’t have an effect? And where you are from matters a lot, you will probably answer very differently if you are from California or if you are from Birmingham UK.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - febusravenga 1y ago
    In western Germany, France, UK? Traditionally catholic countries, core of European enlightenment culture. Yes there is small, but realistic chance. That's why right shovinism is rising in eu
- tankenmate 1y ago
  And the fundamentalist Christians who advocate that women should "Keep Sweet"? Ever wondered where fundie baby voice comes from? I suspect if you look at it a bit longer you'll see that the issue isn't "Muslim", the issue is "fundamentalism". "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
  - weregiraffe 1y ago
    No, the issue is wider. Everyone has something that can be considered a "fundamentalist value" by someone else who doesn't share it. It just doesn't feel that way when the value is yours.
    - tankenmate 1y ago
      I suspect you misunderstand the meaning of the word fundamentalism; it's not just about absolutism, but also the authoritarian aspect, i.e. this issue is "back and white" and "i'm going to force you to to adhere to this black and white framework" (for some mechanism of "force"). My point is that it is the combination of "lack and white" and "forced compliance" that is the issue. So your point "considered a "fundamentalist value" by someone else who doesn't share it" either a) directly contradicts the "No, the issue is wider", or b) you didn't understand what I was saying.
      - weregiraffe 1y ago
        Every society will force someone to adher to something against their will.
        tankenmate 1y ago
        "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"; your statement is both a) lacking any nuance (any cost vs any benefit), and b) so lacking in nuance (a tautology even) to border on irrelevance and nihilism (a throw away statement that has the intellectual depth of "everything happens for a reason", a true but largely useless comment that, at least on the surface, is used to shut down any debate).
anon291 1y ago
There is something particular to the twitter style of website that is toxic. I tried twitter for a month or two and my mental health fell apart. Back to reddit and hn and my life feels better. They are also less addicting. The segregation into interest specific communities helps you context switch.
spencerflem 1y ago
There is no way to look at what the republicans have been doing and conclude that they are trying to improve everyone’s well being.
- palmfacehn 1y ago
  That is a good example of a bad faith presupposition. It assumes intent. You may passionately believe this and it may even be a popular view here at HN. However, it isn't a starting point for a dialogue.
  - croon 1y ago
    Do you have a good faith presupposition that is congruent with what is currently happening? This is referring to house and senate republicans, not every unsuspecting voter. Not to say there weren't signs and messaging signalling this.
    - palmfacehn 1y ago
      You're stepping into a distinct issue where you specify politicians or the political classes. Thus far I took the discussion to be about individuals engaging in informal political discussions. The poll itself wasn't limited to politicians. There are well known malign incentives for politicians and the political classes. Generally speaking these involve the expansion of the purview of the state and the time preferences dictated by electoral cycles. These are realist views around the incentives political actors find themselves subjected to. The extent of how much these incentives are perceived to dictate outcomes might correlate with the observer's cynicism. However, presuming that these incentives would only apply to one political party would be naive at best. At worst it would be divisive partisan tilting. The suggestion that it is specific to Republicans and the devolution of this thread is illustrative of the polling data.
      - croon 1y ago
        You're making the suggestion that the major contributor to the current issues are those incentives, yet the incentives haven't changed much the last couple of decades, and the last year is wholly unprecedented. How do you square that?

weregiraffe 1y ago

What about the millions of, for example, Muslims, who have a very particular idea of what "prosperity" means? Especially for your female children.

woooooo 1y ago
Do fundamentalist Muslims have a realistic chance of imposing those views on your nation? Because, if not, you Fell For It Again. (Aside, every western Muslim I've personally met has been chill)
- zpeti 1y ago
  Realistic is a very broad term, but do you think they don’t have an effect? And where you are from matters a lot, you will probably answer very differently if you are from California or if you are from Birmingham UK.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- febusravenga 1y ago
  In western Germany, France, UK? Traditionally catholic countries, core of European enlightenment culture. Yes there is small, but realistic chance. That's why right shovinism is rising in eu
tankenmate 1y ago
And the fundamentalist Christians who advocate that women should "Keep Sweet"? Ever wondered where fundie baby voice comes from? I suspect if you look at it a bit longer you'll see that the issue isn't "Muslim", the issue is "fundamentalism". "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
- weregiraffe 1y ago
  No, the issue is wider. Everyone has something that can be considered a "fundamentalist value" by someone else who doesn't share it. It just doesn't feel that way when the value is yours.
  - tankenmate 1y ago
    I suspect you misunderstand the meaning of the word fundamentalism; it's not just about absolutism, but also the authoritarian aspect, i.e. this issue is "back and white" and "i'm going to force you to to adhere to this black and white framework" (for some mechanism of "force"). My point is that it is the combination of "lack and white" and "forced compliance" that is the issue. So your point "considered a "fundamentalist value" by someone else who doesn't share it" either a) directly contradicts the "No, the issue is wider", or b) you didn't understand what I was saying.
    - weregiraffe 1y ago
      Every society will force someone to adher to something against their will.
      - tankenmate 1y ago
        "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"; your statement is both a) lacking any nuance (any cost vs any benefit), and b) so lacking in nuance (a tautology even) to border on irrelevance and nihilism (a throw away statement that has the intellectual depth of "everything happens for a reason", a true but largely useless comment that, at least on the surface, is used to shut down any debate).

anon291 1y ago

There is something particular to the twitter style of website that is toxic. I tried twitter for a month or two and my mental health fell apart. Back to reddit and hn and my life feels better. They are also less addicting. The segregation into interest specific communities helps you context switch.

spencerflem 1y ago

There is no way to look at what the republicans have been doing and conclude that they are trying to improve everyone’s well being.

palmfacehn 1y ago
That is a good example of a bad faith presupposition. It assumes intent. You may passionately believe this and it may even be a popular view here at HN. However, it isn't a starting point for a dialogue.
- croon 1y ago
  Do you have a good faith presupposition that is congruent with what is currently happening? This is referring to house and senate republicans, not every unsuspecting voter. Not to say there weren't signs and messaging signalling this.
  - palmfacehn 1y ago
    You're stepping into a distinct issue where you specify politicians or the political classes. Thus far I took the discussion to be about individuals engaging in informal political discussions. The poll itself wasn't limited to politicians. There are well known malign incentives for politicians and the political classes. Generally speaking these involve the expansion of the purview of the state and the time preferences dictated by electoral cycles. These are realist views around the incentives political actors find themselves subjected to. The extent of how much these incentives are perceived to dictate outcomes might correlate with the observer's cynicism. However, presuming that these incentives would only apply to one political party would be naive at best. At worst it would be divisive partisan tilting. The suggestion that it is specific to Republicans and the devolution of this thread is illustrative of the polling data.
    - croon 1y ago
      You're making the suggestion that the major contributor to the current issues are those incentives, yet the incentives haven't changed much the last couple of decades, and the last year is wholly unprecedented. How do you square that?