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I'm no longer a fan of using any front-end libraries at all en lieu of just using standard event listeners and web components, but in their defense, by the time

I'm no longer a fan of using any front-end libraries at all en lieu of just using standard event listeners and web components, but in their defense, by the time that you're creating or updating that many elements, most developers are backing out of the framework anyway. It's the primary reason virtual table libraries exist.

cheema33 1y ago
> I'm no longer a fan of using any front-end libraries at all en lieu of just using standard event listeners and web components You can get away without using frontend frameworks for small and simple projects. However, for large and complex projects you will struggle. For example, try building Google Docs without a frontend library. You will struggle even if you have an army of developers at your disposal. In fact, with a larger team, a library/framework helps standardize things.
- weinzierl 1y ago
  "For example, try building Google Docs without a frontend library. You will struggle [..]" Except that Google Docs is not built with a framework. At least not a generic one and being generic is kind of the hallmark of framework.
  - cheema33 1y ago
    > Except that Google Docs is not built with a framework. It is most certainly built with a framework. It is just an internal framework.
    - weinzierl 1y ago
      Internal or external doesn't matter. The question is if it's used for more than one product - if not, then I'd argue it is not a framework. And, yes, Google has internal JS frameworks, but I am not aware that GoogleDocs is based on one.
- andrewmcwatters 1y ago
  We build large apps at my company without this and it reduces our dependency management overhead. Most software doesn't require large teams, ones with large enough structure to utilize cross-functional teams are siloed enough that it also still doesn't matter and the most standardization that's effectively useful is the company's specific UI library for their corporate branding. At that point you're really using the company's library, and less of the underlying framework anyway. Uber, AAA, American Express, etc. All of them do basically this.
- wiseowise 1y ago
  > You can get away without using frontend frameworks for small and simple projects. Small and simple projects like checks notes VSCode, Obsidian, Min (browser).
  - cheema33 1y ago
    I don't know about others, but VSCode uses other libraries and tools to build on top of. It uses Electron, Monaco editor, Web components etc. It is not pure javascript/typescript.

cheema33 1y ago

> I'm no longer a fan of using any front-end libraries at all en lieu of just using standard event listeners and web components You can get away without using frontend frameworks for small and simple projects. However, for large and complex projects you will struggle. For example, try building Google Docs without a frontend library. You will struggle even if you have an army of developers at your disposal. In fact, with a larger team, a library/framework helps standardize things.

weinzierl 1y ago
"For example, try building Google Docs without a frontend library. You will struggle [..]" Except that Google Docs is not built with a framework. At least not a generic one and being generic is kind of the hallmark of framework.
- cheema33 1y ago
  > Except that Google Docs is not built with a framework. It is most certainly built with a framework. It is just an internal framework.
  - weinzierl 1y ago
    Internal or external doesn't matter. The question is if it's used for more than one product - if not, then I'd argue it is not a framework. And, yes, Google has internal JS frameworks, but I am not aware that GoogleDocs is based on one.
andrewmcwatters 1y ago
We build large apps at my company without this and it reduces our dependency management overhead. Most software doesn't require large teams, ones with large enough structure to utilize cross-functional teams are siloed enough that it also still doesn't matter and the most standardization that's effectively useful is the company's specific UI library for their corporate branding. At that point you're really using the company's library, and less of the underlying framework anyway. Uber, AAA, American Express, etc. All of them do basically this.
wiseowise 1y ago
> You can get away without using frontend frameworks for small and simple projects. Small and simple projects like checks notes VSCode, Obsidian, Min (browser).
- cheema33 1y ago
  I don't know about others, but VSCode uses other libraries and tools to build on top of. It uses Electron, Monaco editor, Web components etc. It is not pure javascript/typescript.