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> Tax increases may also help. I don't live in a costal state, but when I do consulting work typically at charity rates alongside my standard full-time job, I

> Tax increases may also help. I don't live in a costal state, but when I do consulting work typically at charity rates alongside my standard full-time job, I have to pay 24% federal tax, 15.3% FICA, and 7.85% state tax. I am already taxed whenever I want to help anyone at 47.15%. That's before the required tax structures and consulting for doing all the invoicing legally. God himself only wanted 10%, so it seems a government playing God is awfully expensive. You can't raise taxes any further before I'm done, and I don't think I'm alone, businesses and consultants are already crushed in taxes. I have to bill $40K to hopefully take home $20K; at which point, is it even worth my time? But if I don't consult because it isn't worth it, are small businesses suddenly going to afford an agency or a dedicated software developer? Of course not, so their growth is handicapped, and I wonder what the effects of that tax-wise are.

whimsicalism 1y ago
You're talking about your marginal rate and we simply are far to the left on the laffer curve, raising taxes will raise revenue. I'm not unsympathetic, my marginal is close to the same - but generally I think people's claims that they will stop working are generally more bark than bite and the evidence largely backs that up. If you don't want a tax-based solution, I do hope you are agitating for SS and medicare cuts.
- gjsman-1000 1y ago
  > we simply are far to the left on the laffer curve, raising taxes will raise revenue I don't believe this, actually. I think that we will raise more revenue, yes, by squeezing more from the Fortune 500; but you will absolutely crush small business and consultancy work further. It's kind of like how an 80% tax rate on everyone making over $100K would do a fantastic job of raising revenue, but it's fundamentally stupid and would kill all future golden geese. (On that note, I see this comment a lot about how we had huge tax rates, 91% in the 1950s; but this is misleading. The effective tax rate for those earners was only 41%, due to the sheer number of exemptions, according to modern analysis. We have never had an actual effective 91% tax rate, or anywhere close to it. Those rates were theater, never reality.)
  - whimsicalism 1y ago
    pretty much all modern economists disagree with you https://kentclarkcenter.org/surveys/laffer-curve/ https://kentclarkcenter.org/surveys/laffer-curve/
    - gjsman-1000 1y ago
      ... in 2012?
      - whimsicalism 1y ago
        are effective tax rates higher or lower than in 2012?
        gjsman-1000 1y ago
        Well, if we include property tax, sales tax, SALT deduction cap changes, compliance costs, regulatory burdens, state and local taxes... higher. On that note, you have no evidence that economists focus solely on tax rates on the curve independently of the economy at large. By definition, the curve is determined from external factors and economic measurements, none of which currently resemble 2012. If the economy crashed and there was 20% unemployment, do you still think they'd stand behind the same curve?
        whimsicalism 1y ago
        okay, believe what you want. i just hope you are pushing for SS+medicare cuts
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - alphazard 1y ago
      Just a reminder that professional macro-economists are paid to justify political decisions. That's the job. Find data that can arguably make this policy (made for other reasons) make sense to the voters, who have a much worse understanding of economics. As always, the question with economists is "why aren't you rich?". You would get much better answers about macro-economic counterfactuals by going to a macro-trading firm like Bridgewater and asking the employees "what do you think would happen if..."
- justlikereddit 1y ago
  >I think people's claims that they will stop working are generally more bark than bite They stop paying taxes and work off the books instead but you don't announce that publicly for obvious reasons. The incentive to do this increases with tax pressure. The willingness of people to pay for tax-free work equally increases because you'll pay less. There's also an increasing asymmetry of what the government gains from a tax hike versus how oppressive it becomes that becomes unfavorable as tax rates go up.
  - whimsicalism 1y ago
    okay, i hope you are pushing for social security and medicare cuts then. hard choices are hard for a reason.
  - bryanlarsen 1y ago
    The type of people who will work off book to avoid 50% taxes will generally also work off book to avoid 25% taxes, so increasing the tax rate does not have a large effect on the hidden economy ratio.
maxerickson 1y ago
It sort of depends on how much time you are putting in when you bill $40k, no? You say you consult at charity rates and then point to taxation as the sole reason it isn't worth your time...
frumper 1y ago
If you're at a 24% marginal rate then you're at least approaching the point you stop paying Social Security taxes. Sounds like you just need to work a little more to keep 12% more of your money. It's funny how making more money reduces your tax rate. You just don't make enough to benefit.
- Jtsummers 1y ago
  If they're married and paying 24% federal tax rate on any of their income, they almost certainly aren't paying any social security taxes on their consulting income. That would mean their adjusted gross income is in the $200-400k range for their full-time day job which exceeds the Social Security cap by a good margin, it's $176k. They'd still have to pay for Medicare, but it knocks 12.4% off their estimated taxes for consulting. If they're single, then the math is different. 24% for single people starts at just over $100k and runs to about $200k so they may have to pay those taxes. It's always frustrating when people whine about taxes but giving insufficient information to evaluate their complaint.
  - frumper 1y ago
    Also, FICA cap goes off gross and a 24% rate is based off AGI, just to muddle the numbers even more.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
ponector 1y ago
>> God himself only wanted 10% Wanted 10% but offered nothing real in return. At least you get some services from your taxes, like unlawful detention/extradition of suspicious people.

whimsicalism 1y ago

You're talking about your marginal rate and we simply are far to the left on the laffer curve, raising taxes will raise revenue. I'm not unsympathetic, my marginal is close to the same - but generally I think people's claims that they will stop working are generally more bark than bite and the evidence largely backs that up. If you don't want a tax-based solution, I do hope you are agitating for SS and medicare cuts.

gjsman-1000 1y ago
> we simply are far to the left on the laffer curve, raising taxes will raise revenue I don't believe this, actually. I think that we will raise more revenue, yes, by squeezing more from the Fortune 500; but you will absolutely crush small business and consultancy work further. It's kind of like how an 80% tax rate on everyone making over $100K would do a fantastic job of raising revenue, but it's fundamentally stupid and would kill all future golden geese. (On that note, I see this comment a lot about how we had huge tax rates, 91% in the 1950s; but this is misleading. The effective tax rate for those earners was only 41%, due to the sheer number of exemptions, according to modern analysis. We have never had an actual effective 91% tax rate, or anywhere close to it. Those rates were theater, never reality.)
- whimsicalism 1y ago
  pretty much all modern economists disagree with you https://kentclarkcenter.org/surveys/laffer-curve/ https://kentclarkcenter.org/surveys/laffer-curve/
  - gjsman-1000 1y ago
    ... in 2012?
    - whimsicalism 1y ago
      are effective tax rates higher or lower than in 2012?
      - gjsman-1000 1y ago
        Well, if we include property tax, sales tax, SALT deduction cap changes, compliance costs, regulatory burdens, state and local taxes... higher. On that note, you have no evidence that economists focus solely on tax rates on the curve independently of the economy at large. By definition, the curve is determined from external factors and economic measurements, none of which currently resemble 2012. If the economy crashed and there was 20% unemployment, do you still think they'd stand behind the same curve?
        whimsicalism 1y ago
        okay, believe what you want. i just hope you are pushing for SS+medicare cuts
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - alphazard 1y ago
    Just a reminder that professional macro-economists are paid to justify political decisions. That's the job. Find data that can arguably make this policy (made for other reasons) make sense to the voters, who have a much worse understanding of economics. As always, the question with economists is "why aren't you rich?". You would get much better answers about macro-economic counterfactuals by going to a macro-trading firm like Bridgewater and asking the employees "what do you think would happen if..."
justlikereddit 1y ago
>I think people's claims that they will stop working are generally more bark than bite They stop paying taxes and work off the books instead but you don't announce that publicly for obvious reasons. The incentive to do this increases with tax pressure. The willingness of people to pay for tax-free work equally increases because you'll pay less. There's also an increasing asymmetry of what the government gains from a tax hike versus how oppressive it becomes that becomes unfavorable as tax rates go up.
- whimsicalism 1y ago
  okay, i hope you are pushing for social security and medicare cuts then. hard choices are hard for a reason.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  The type of people who will work off book to avoid 50% taxes will generally also work off book to avoid 25% taxes, so increasing the tax rate does not have a large effect on the hidden economy ratio.

maxerickson 1y ago

It sort of depends on how much time you are putting in when you bill $40k, no? You say you consult at charity rates and then point to taxation as the sole reason it isn't worth your time...

frumper 1y ago

If you're at a 24% marginal rate then you're at least approaching the point you stop paying Social Security taxes. Sounds like you just need to work a little more to keep 12% more of your money. It's funny how making more money reduces your tax rate. You just don't make enough to benefit.

Jtsummers 1y ago
If they're married and paying 24% federal tax rate on any of their income, they almost certainly aren't paying any social security taxes on their consulting income. That would mean their adjusted gross income is in the $200-400k range for their full-time day job which exceeds the Social Security cap by a good margin, it's $176k. They'd still have to pay for Medicare, but it knocks 12.4% off their estimated taxes for consulting. If they're single, then the math is different. 24% for single people starts at just over $100k and runs to about $200k so they may have to pay those taxes. It's always frustrating when people whine about taxes but giving insufficient information to evaluate their complaint.
- frumper 1y ago
  Also, FICA cap goes off gross and a 24% rate is based off AGI, just to muddle the numbers even more.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

ponector 1y ago

>> God himself only wanted 10% Wanted 10% but offered nothing real in return. At least you get some services from your taxes, like unlawful detention/extradition of suspicious people.