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So make sure you fully read the fine print before signing an agreement for something. You should do this for consumer stuff, but it's mandatory for business st

So make sure you fully read the fine print before signing an agreement for something. You should do this for consumer stuff, but it's mandatory for business stuff.

morkalork 1y ago
I'm curious about about how the "unilateral amendment" works. If you didn't like the fine print in it, do you have to give your six month termination notice then and there?
- danaris 1y ago
  If they unilaterally amend the contract to go from 6 months' notice to 12 months' notice, then presumably you'd have to give your 12 month termination notice then and there... ...and hope they don't unilaterally amend the contract in the interim to allow them to retroactively extend the termination period. AFAIK, "unilateral amendment" should be considered at least very suspect by most courts?
  - arethuza 1y ago
    Unilateral amendments appear to be fairly standard legal things: https://www.oncontracts.com/unilateral-amendments/ https://www.oncontracts.com/unilateral-amendments/
  - exe34 1y ago
    doesn't it defeat the point of a contract?
    - blochist 1y ago
      Usually "unilateral amendments" are allowed via the contract terms, so it's part of the original contract.
      - exe34 1y ago
        so you might as well sign a blank sheet. why bother with a contract?
        rcxdude 1y ago
        As written they are usually a Hobson's choice - accept the new terms or terminate the agreement. So the other party can't throw something completely heinous in there. But it does open you up to all kinds of issues, especially if accepting the new terms is implicit in taking no action, since this kind of thing can easily wind up ignored in an organisation.
  - arcbyte 1y ago
    Unilateral amendment might be a bit of a misnomer because its basically a new contract that your continued use implicitly accepts. There is never any retroactive term change. If they unilaterally change the notice period to 12 months and you reject, you would have to give your of rejection but it would be under the 6 month term because you are not accepting the new contract. Unless there are other provisions for unilateral changes for contracts in the termination period, no new terms would apply to your final 6 months.
kevin_nisbet 1y ago
Yup, even for smaller business stuff. For a non-profit I'm on the board of, the staff wanted a more useful printer/copy machine than just a store bought thing, it's a small office, so I said sure find something and let us know. So I get a contract and am told it's been vetted and I should sign it. What I found was outrageous. - If we cancelled for any reason, including if they just didn't do any of there terms in the contract, we owed the full price of the remaining contract immediately. - The way they structured it was also as a rental, so we were paying full price for purchase of the equipment embedded into the term of the contract, but it was the vendors equipment, so if we cancelled we still paid them full price for the equipment, and they got to keep it. - If there were any legal disputes, no matter which party was at fault, my side would pay for all the lawyers. I said nope, can't do it. And my staff were pissed at me for like a year because everyone just signs those things.
- xmprt 1y ago
  I get why your staff would be pissed because dealing with a crappy printer/scanner is the bane of a lot of office workers' existence... but they must have been able to find a better vendor or something off the shelf which supported the features they needed right? What special feature could they possibly offer to make them brave enough to put all those terms in their contract?
  - yobbo 1y ago
    They count on potential customers not reading the contracts, or being able to do math or research themselves. Typical customers for these types of scams are small offices with no technical person in the loop.
    - trollbridge 1y ago
      Another example is the predatory, abusive contracts sold for merchant card processing. Whereas our local bank will do it for $10 a month, interchange plus 0.15%, no contract. Versus fees of 3%, 3 year contract.
- 1y ago
sneak 1y ago
I read the agreement for ID.me and it’s atrocious. It requires that I “voluntarily” waive civil rights. I don’t want to use the service. There is no other way to log into IRS.gov. You can’t watch YouTube without a Google account. You can’t be in the parent group chat without agreeing to the Meta TOS for WhatsApp. The list goes on.
- hoten 1y ago
  Which civil rights?
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    And regardless, courts have previously ruled that you can't waive your civil rights in a contract. Previously. Not the current SCOTUS, of course.
    - seanw444 1y ago
      How does that hold up for arbitration clauses?
      - brewdad 1y ago
        What civil right is being violated? The sixth amendment only applies in criminal matters.
        sneak 1y ago
        The seventh amendment is right to a jury trial in civil matters.
      - charcircuit 1y ago
        The law gives people the right to use arbitration.
- tonyhart7 1y ago
  "You can’t watch YouTube without a Google account" you cant??? I reinstall my dekstop the other day, it let me view without login the problem is recommendation tab/service is empty because there is no history so it cant recommend something, hence you assume that you couldn't view videos
reaperducer 1y ago
So make sure you fully read the fine print before signing an agreement for something. The article makes it sound like that wouldn't have helped. It states that the terms of the contract were "unilaterally" changed, without anyone being told -- Something that the tech industry has normalized. Reading the fine print of the signed contract wouldn't have helped, since the contract changed since then. These days you're lucky if you even get an e-mail saying "Our terms of service have changed, and if you don't like it, tough noogies." People who are not lawyers on HN will say it's illegal, yet it still happens constantly, and doesn't seem to have been struck down in any court, or it wouldn't keep happening.
- x0x0 1y ago
  Contracts cannot be so amended unless you allow it. Why would you possibly allow it? ToS are for low-value consumer accounts. 500 seats and public institutions is very different.
- rcxdude 1y ago
  If you sign such a contract then you have already screwed up. Note that terms of service and licenses are not the same thing as such contracts and are a bit more limited legally (heck, such a clause in a full-on contract is already on shaky ground)
rectang 1y ago
And factor the cost in time, effort and risk of mistaken analysis into the cost of what the contract offers. Many times, it just isn’t worth it.

So make sure you fully read the fine print before signing an agreement for something. You should do this for consumer stuff, but it's mandatory for business stuff.

morkalork 1y ago

I'm curious about about how the "unilateral amendment" works. If you didn't like the fine print in it, do you have to give your six month termination notice then and there?

danaris 1y ago
If they unilaterally amend the contract to go from 6 months' notice to 12 months' notice, then presumably you'd have to give your 12 month termination notice then and there... ...and hope they don't unilaterally amend the contract in the interim to allow them to retroactively extend the termination period. AFAIK, "unilateral amendment" should be considered at least very suspect by most courts?
- arethuza 1y ago
  Unilateral amendments appear to be fairly standard legal things: https://www.oncontracts.com/unilateral-amendments/ https://www.oncontracts.com/unilateral-amendments/
- exe34 1y ago
  doesn't it defeat the point of a contract?
  - blochist 1y ago
    Usually "unilateral amendments" are allowed via the contract terms, so it's part of the original contract.
    - exe34 1y ago
      so you might as well sign a blank sheet. why bother with a contract?
      - rcxdude 1y ago
        As written they are usually a Hobson's choice - accept the new terms or terminate the agreement. So the other party can't throw something completely heinous in there. But it does open you up to all kinds of issues, especially if accepting the new terms is implicit in taking no action, since this kind of thing can easily wind up ignored in an organisation.
- arcbyte 1y ago
  Unilateral amendment might be a bit of a misnomer because its basically a new contract that your continued use implicitly accepts. There is never any retroactive term change. If they unilaterally change the notice period to 12 months and you reject, you would have to give your of rejection but it would be under the 6 month term because you are not accepting the new contract. Unless there are other provisions for unilateral changes for contracts in the termination period, no new terms would apply to your final 6 months.

kevin_nisbet 1y ago

Yup, even for smaller business stuff. For a non-profit I'm on the board of, the staff wanted a more useful printer/copy machine than just a store bought thing, it's a small office, so I said sure find something and let us know. So I get a contract and am told it's been vetted and I should sign it. What I found was outrageous. - If we cancelled for any reason, including if they just didn't do any of there terms in the contract, we owed the full price of the remaining contract immediately. - The way they structured it was also as a rental, so we were paying full price for purchase of the equipment embedded into the term of the contract, but it was the vendors equipment, so if we cancelled we still paid them full price for the equipment, and they got to keep it. - If there were any legal disputes, no matter which party was at fault, my side would pay for all the lawyers. I said nope, can't do it. And my staff were pissed at me for like a year because everyone just signs those things.

xmprt 1y ago
I get why your staff would be pissed because dealing with a crappy printer/scanner is the bane of a lot of office workers' existence... but they must have been able to find a better vendor or something off the shelf which supported the features they needed right? What special feature could they possibly offer to make them brave enough to put all those terms in their contract?
- yobbo 1y ago
  They count on potential customers not reading the contracts, or being able to do math or research themselves. Typical customers for these types of scams are small offices with no technical person in the loop.
  - trollbridge 1y ago
    Another example is the predatory, abusive contracts sold for merchant card processing. Whereas our local bank will do it for $10 a month, interchange plus 0.15%, no contract. Versus fees of 3%, 3 year contract.
1y ago

sneak 1y ago

I read the agreement for ID.me and it’s atrocious. It requires that I “voluntarily” waive civil rights. I don’t want to use the service. There is no other way to log into IRS.gov. You can’t watch YouTube without a Google account. You can’t be in the parent group chat without agreeing to the Meta TOS for WhatsApp. The list goes on.

hoten 1y ago
Which civil rights?
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  And regardless, courts have previously ruled that you can't waive your civil rights in a contract. Previously. Not the current SCOTUS, of course.
  - seanw444 1y ago
    How does that hold up for arbitration clauses?
    - brewdad 1y ago
      What civil right is being violated? The sixth amendment only applies in criminal matters.
      - sneak 1y ago
        The seventh amendment is right to a jury trial in civil matters.
    - charcircuit 1y ago
      The law gives people the right to use arbitration.
tonyhart7 1y ago
"You can’t watch YouTube without a Google account" you cant??? I reinstall my dekstop the other day, it let me view without login the problem is recommendation tab/service is empty because there is no history so it cant recommend something, hence you assume that you couldn't view videos

reaperducer 1y ago

So make sure you fully read the fine print before signing an agreement for something. The article makes it sound like that wouldn't have helped. It states that the terms of the contract were "unilaterally" changed, without anyone being told -- Something that the tech industry has normalized. Reading the fine print of the signed contract wouldn't have helped, since the contract changed since then. These days you're lucky if you even get an e-mail saying "Our terms of service have changed, and if you don't like it, tough noogies." People who are not lawyers on HN will say it's illegal, yet it still happens constantly, and doesn't seem to have been struck down in any court, or it wouldn't keep happening.

x0x0 1y ago
Contracts cannot be so amended unless you allow it. Why would you possibly allow it? ToS are for low-value consumer accounts. 500 seats and public institutions is very different.
rcxdude 1y ago
If you sign such a contract then you have already screwed up. Note that terms of service and licenses are not the same thing as such contracts and are a bit more limited legally (heck, such a clause in a full-on contract is already on shaky ground)

rectang 1y ago

And factor the cost in time, effort and risk of mistaken analysis into the cost of what the contract offers. Many times, it just isn’t worth it.