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croes 1y ago
Every freedom has boundaries that some see as oppression. That’s where the disagreement arises between people who have no doubt that their view of these boundaries is the right one
snapcaster 1y ago
How is adopting the beliefs your society blasted you with since childhood an "inner" moral compass? I completely agree with you, but I recognize it's a product of my environment and "propaganda" more than some kind of intrinsic thing
fluoridation 1y ago
>Do you consider freedom (speech, movement, self-determination and so on) equal to oppression, restriction and tyranny? GP is saying that the phrase "moral high ground" presupposes an objective definition of "up" in morality. You can't cite a particular person's subjective moral "up" to disagree with them. Whether any given person values freedom or oppression more highly doesn't say anything about which one is objectively more moral, if any. Besides that, do you think it unthinkable that a person would approve of some amount of oppression and restriction being placed on them in favor of achieving some goal?
lazide 1y ago
If you ask a random Chinese middle aged man or woman, do you think they will agree with you or not? In my experience, they think there are practical reasons why things are the way they are in China, and what you’re describing is a poisonous fantasy spread by idiots. (As one said to me quite clearly once in Singapore!) Either way, I prefer freedom of movement, self determination, etc. but it’s pretty obvious that many cultures actively think it’s a bad idea and go out of their way to squash it in very real ways, especially against certain portions of the population. And I bet if we did a spreadsheet with various examples, you’d also consider some of them too much. Like consensual vore. Personal freedom, or mental illness? Ignoring that you’ll get a fight from any given culture on these and many more topics and we can all just ‘get along’ due to fundamental human awesomeness is just not how it has ever worked - ever - near as I can tell.

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Every freedom has boundaries that some see as oppression. That’s where the disagreement arises between people who have no doubt that their view of these boundaries is the right one

snapcaster 1y ago

How is adopting the beliefs your society blasted you with since childhood an "inner" moral compass? I completely agree with you, but I recognize it's a product of my environment and "propaganda" more than some kind of intrinsic thing

fluoridation 1y ago

>Do you consider freedom (speech, movement, self-determination and so on) equal to oppression, restriction and tyranny? GP is saying that the phrase "moral high ground" presupposes an objective definition of "up" in morality. You can't cite a particular person's subjective moral "up" to disagree with them. Whether any given person values freedom or oppression more highly doesn't say anything about which one is objectively more moral, if any. Besides that, do you think it unthinkable that a person would approve of some amount of oppression and restriction being placed on them in favor of achieving some goal?

lazide 1y ago

If you ask a random Chinese middle aged man or woman, do you think they will agree with you or not? In my experience, they think there are practical reasons why things are the way they are in China, and what you’re describing is a poisonous fantasy spread by idiots. (As one said to me quite clearly once in Singapore!) Either way, I prefer freedom of movement, self determination, etc. but it’s pretty obvious that many cultures actively think it’s a bad idea and go out of their way to squash it in very real ways, especially against certain portions of the population. And I bet if we did a spreadsheet with various examples, you’d also consider some of them too much. Like consensual vore. Personal freedom, or mental illness? Ignoring that you’ll get a fight from any given culture on these and many more topics and we can all just ‘get along’ due to fundamental human awesomeness is just not how it has ever worked - ever - near as I can tell.