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The guy's whole bit is arguing from some sort of vague sociological perspective against gender affirming care. And pretending that (in the United States of Amer

by rtpg 1y ago

The guy's whole bit is arguing from some sort of vague sociological perspective against gender affirming care. And pretending that (in the United States of America of all places) teens can just walk up to their doctors super easily and get surgery done somehow. He presents this issue as a sort of parental-rights-ignoring epidemic, but if you dig into the reality of it all there's a hell of a lot of parental consent, a hell of a lot of checks within the medical establishment about whether to do these things, and of course the person themselves being involved. Singal is a fellow traveler to people who defend conversion therapy, which is a thing where _kids are sent to a camp to be trained into a different sexuality_. This is shit that's basically banned in many places in Europe, because many believe that those camps are basically child abuse. So you're looking at a person who has a lot of distrust for the medical establishment, falsely presents the reality of the thing to make it sound like people are walking in for free top surgery the moment they get into middle school[0], and this is stuff that is being cited to add restrictions on other things. There's this deeply personal thing that a very small segment of the population is trying to deal with. There are medical professionals that have some help (including just of the "talking" variety), some degree of acceptance in pockets of society. And this sort of thing means that people can have a little bit of dignity. And the medical establishment is trying to treat people! Meanwhile this guy is using his voice to just spread fear around all of this, misrepresenting even really basic things. And to what goal? Again, parental rights are part of the equation in reality! And we're not talking about a sports thing here. So who is Singal out there fighting for? I kind of don't care what this guy's opinion is on, like, taxes and the role of government in the rest of life. He's going out there writing this kind of stuff so consistently that he's known for it. And I have a very hard time understanding who he is the voice for, except for people who are just against trans people existing in public society. I don't care about him being banned off of bluesky or whatever. I just want people here to have at least some access to medical care (in various forms) if doctors and parents agree. And his stuff is helping to provide ammo to roll this access back at a legislative level. Serious people should know that what he says doesn't hold up on examination. In the same way that people "know" that Trump just says things that sound emotionally right to him in the moment to prove a point. [0]: I'm exagerating here but again, in the USA access to medical treatment is not easy!

mustache_kimono 1y ago
> And pretending that (in the United States of America of all places) teens can just walk up to their doctors super easily and get surgery done somehow. You should see some of the background evidence on this. NY Times did a podcast series not long ago, which covered the controversy, called The Protocol: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-protocol/id1817731112 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-protocol/id1817731... It was about how the so called Dutch Protocol re: gender affirming care first came to the US, and how long-ish psychological evaluation times were often truncated because of how far patients had to travel in the US. Then the lid flew off when such care moved to California. > Singal is a fellow traveler to people who defend conversion therapy Yikes. One doesn't usually expect people to use the actual language of McCarthy-ites. > So who is Singal out there fighting for? The kids? It's really not crazy to believe that the children, perhaps not given adequate care, could simply be wrong, or even socially influenced (like everything else in a teenager's life). > He's going out there writing this kind of stuff so consistently that he's known for it. And I have a very hard time understanding who he is the voice for, except for people who are just against trans people existing in public society. It's a new treatment and how it is practiced here in the US is the very Q he is examining. I'm not saying he's right, but I do feel better if there is someone with a critical eye looking at new treatment methods.
- rtpg 1y ago
  I am going to re-insist on the idea that parental consent is going to play a big role in practice in US healthcare practices, if only for financial reasons. I have very little patience for the idea that access is easy. Perhaps there is a debate to be had on treatment protocols, but I generally feel like, for something that covers such a small segment of the population, the default is to err towards letting that debate happen in professional circles.
  - mustache_kimono 1y ago
    > I am going to re-insist on the idea that parental consent is going to play a big role in practice in US healthcare practices, if only for financial reasons. Oh agreed. If, for no other reason, that is how the politics, even on the American Left, are now. A few years ago, people were talking about gender affirming care as a matter of right for the children. Singal, among others, changed that conversation. > I have very little patience for the idea that access is easy. Agreed, but I think you may have misconstrued Singal's point. He's not saying it's too easy, he's saying there is not enough preliminary psychiatric care like the treatment protocol dictated in the Netherlands. > Perhaps there is a debate to be had on treatment protocols, but I generally feel like, for something that covers such a small segment of the population, the default is to err towards letting that debate happen in professional circles. Um. Those professional circles like HN's professional circles need to be open to the air every now and then. Like -- what if we allowed Peter Thiel and his circle of founders, raised on Heinlein novels and sugary soda, to dictate tech policy in the US? Some people are just too weirdly close to a thing. We actually do need the wisdom that normies can offer. Specifically, re: this topic, four European countries, who have a much more experience than Americans do with this care, have recently implemented more restrictive approaches to care. See: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/06/us-europe-transgender-care-00119106 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/06/us-europe-transgend...

by rtpg 1y ago

mustache_kimono 1y ago

> And pretending that (in the United States of America of all places) teens can just walk up to their doctors super easily and get surgery done somehow. You should see some of the background evidence on this. NY Times did a podcast series not long ago, which covered the controversy, called The Protocol: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-protocol/id1817731112 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-protocol/id1817731... It was about how the so called Dutch Protocol re: gender affirming care first came to the US, and how long-ish psychological evaluation times were often truncated because of how far patients had to travel in the US. Then the lid flew off when such care moved to California. > Singal is a fellow traveler to people who defend conversion therapy Yikes. One doesn't usually expect people to use the actual language of McCarthy-ites. > So who is Singal out there fighting for? The kids? It's really not crazy to believe that the children, perhaps not given adequate care, could simply be wrong, or even socially influenced (like everything else in a teenager's life). > He's going out there writing this kind of stuff so consistently that he's known for it. And I have a very hard time understanding who he is the voice for, except for people who are just against trans people existing in public society. It's a new treatment and how it is practiced here in the US is the very Q he is examining. I'm not saying he's right, but I do feel better if there is someone with a critical eye looking at new treatment methods.

rtpg 1y ago
I am going to re-insist on the idea that parental consent is going to play a big role in practice in US healthcare practices, if only for financial reasons. I have very little patience for the idea that access is easy. Perhaps there is a debate to be had on treatment protocols, but I generally feel like, for something that covers such a small segment of the population, the default is to err towards letting that debate happen in professional circles.
- mustache_kimono 1y ago
  > I am going to re-insist on the idea that parental consent is going to play a big role in practice in US healthcare practices, if only for financial reasons. Oh agreed. If, for no other reason, that is how the politics, even on the American Left, are now. A few years ago, people were talking about gender affirming care as a matter of right for the children. Singal, among others, changed that conversation. > I have very little patience for the idea that access is easy. Agreed, but I think you may have misconstrued Singal's point. He's not saying it's too easy, he's saying there is not enough preliminary psychiatric care like the treatment protocol dictated in the Netherlands. > Perhaps there is a debate to be had on treatment protocols, but I generally feel like, for something that covers such a small segment of the population, the default is to err towards letting that debate happen in professional circles. Um. Those professional circles like HN's professional circles need to be open to the air every now and then. Like -- what if we allowed Peter Thiel and his circle of founders, raised on Heinlein novels and sugary soda, to dictate tech policy in the US? Some people are just too weirdly close to a thing. We actually do need the wisdom that normies can offer. Specifically, re: this topic, four European countries, who have a much more experience than Americans do with this care, have recently implemented more restrictive approaches to care. See: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/06/us-europe-transgender-care-00119106 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/06/us-europe-transgend...