5 ms·

ja, aber Wachsamkeit ist Pflicht. Wer Freiheit für Sicherheit aufgibt, verliert am Ende beides - das haben wir mehrfach erlebt.

hopelite 1y ago
Germany has neither now. It seems you were sleeping on duty. But I guess you can’t guard against something you either do not have the capacity to or do not wish to see.
- notrealyme123 1y ago
  Please clarify how people in Germany are unfree and unsecure now. Last time I checked we had free votes and I could say that I hate Merz.
  - snehk 1y ago
    People's homes get raided and their belongings get taken away for daring to insult the ruling class or for making fun of them.
    - camillomiller 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - looping__lui 1y ago
        Well, CBS News dedicated an entire episode on these “propaganda stories”… https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/policing-speech-online-germany-60-minutes-transcript/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/policing-speech-online-germ... Germany’s constitution (the Basic Law) does protect freedom of opinion and expression, but it explicitly allows restrictions via “general laws” to protect personal honor, youth, and human dignity. Recent enforcement shows how this plays out: police raids have targeted individuals posting “hate speech” or “extremist” content online. What constitutes hate speech or extremist content is “conveniently” interpreted at times.
        indigo945 1y ago
        The OP claimed that people's homes got raided for "daring to insult the ruling class", your source claims that people's homes got raided for posting extremist racist speech online. Unless you believe in some ridiculous conspiracy where ZE JEWS CONTROL ZE BANKS, this has absolutely no relation to your ability to insult the ruling class: Black people and Muslims are not "the ruling class". And if you do believe in such a conspiracy, please post your personal information such that I can forward it to the relevant agencies and have your house raided. Because we have been through that shit in this country and have no desire to ever see it again.
        looping__lui 1y ago
        I’m just posting what other countries perceive about our way of interpreting and handling hate speech and share context around the legal limitations. You do you. I have no intention engaging with people on “full kool-aid on whatever bubble they are in”. Complain to CBS and the Americans.
        selfmodruntime 1y ago
        Your comment has been debunked countless times. This man's home was not raided for his antisemitism (which is really damn bad!) but for calling a guy an idiot [1]. I suggest you stop spreading lies. [1]: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/nach-schwachkopf-post-prozess-am-amtsgericht-beginnt,UoNpVRx https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/nach-schwachkopf-post-p...
        indigo945 1y ago
        That's a different case though. The Habeck meme thing happened somewhere near Bamberg, the CBS article recounts "state police [...] raided this apartment in northwest Germany". Look, I'm not saying that the police or the ministry of the interior never abuse their power, far from it. (There was also the Andy Grote case a few years back.) But please remember that the original claim we are discussing, from a few comments up in this chain, was that Germany has neither "Freiheit noch Sicherheit" right now. It's ridiculous rabble-rousing to insinuate that because of these outlier events, while concerning, Germany has neither freedom nor security.
      - selfmodruntime 1y ago
        They are true though? Someone just had to shell out 16k because he posted that a politician's head was experiencing a drought [1] [1]: https://www.cicero.de/innenpolitik/meinungsfreiheit-in-gefahr-durre-im-kopf-fuhrt-zu-verurteilung https://www.cicero.de/innenpolitik/meinungsfreiheit-in-gefah...
    - WastedCucumber 1y ago
      Give us some sources sonst bist du einen Eimer.
      - zwnow 1y ago
        Seems to be about Pimmelgate. Andy Grote to be specific.
      - selfmodruntime 1y ago
        Someone calling Robert Habeck a dunce. And please, don't counter with that old Spiegel article that has been debunked a million times.
    - Voultapher 1y ago
      https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2024-11/wirtschaftsminister-robert-habeck-hausdurchsuchung-rentner-antisemitisches-posting https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2024-11/wirtschaftsm...
    - tobias3 1y ago
      This went through the court system and it found that the "raid" was not appropriate and unlawful. Mistakes happen and get corrected. Doesn't mean there is a systemic issue.
  - selfmodruntime 1y ago
    Freedom of Speech is being actively harmed by 188 StGB being increasingly abused.
  - Parae 1y ago
    Being free to vote doesn't make you feel free and secure. It's not even safe to attend to a protest to ask for a ceasefire in Gaza. So yeah, you can say "I hate Merz", but don't even try to say "Free Palestine"...
    - notTooFarGone 1y ago
      Free Palestine - I already hear them knocking send help
    - kakacik 1y ago
      But its never just 'free palestine' or 'stop the war', is it. Its always mixed with 'from river to the sea', mixed with calls for hatred towards jews, sometimes even jewish genocide. Extremists doing what extremists can, which is being extreme as a default. Don't expect much support from public, and greta's gradual slide to political extremism isn't helping much, most people are fed up with her and her persona just poisons topics with... extremism.
    - earthnail 1y ago
      Free Palestine. There, I said it. Although I think it's a rather dumb slogan, and doesn't even remotely do the situation justice. Seriously though, the notion that free speech is impaired in Germany is completely ridiculous and just a massive hoax. Compare this with the situation in the USA where the same people - like Vance who brazenly attacked Germany for an alleged lack of free speech - were super quick to demand a cancellation of Kimmel, because "you can't say that!" We have laws against hate speech, and they may not be perfect, but they have a reason - we simply don't want to tolerate something like the Nazis shouting "burn the jews" in the name of free speech. Calling for violence does not have to be protected by speaking your mind. That's completely silly. But the idea that Germany is anything but a completely free country is ridiculous. Some of the shit that people say (AfD, BSW) drives me nuts, but well, it's a free country.

hopelite 1y ago

Germany has neither now. It seems you were sleeping on duty. But I guess you can’t guard against something you either do not have the capacity to or do not wish to see.

notrealyme123 1y ago
Please clarify how people in Germany are unfree and unsecure now. Last time I checked we had free votes and I could say that I hate Merz.
- snehk 1y ago
  People's homes get raided and their belongings get taken away for daring to insult the ruling class or for making fun of them.
  - camillomiller 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - looping__lui 1y ago
      Well, CBS News dedicated an entire episode on these “propaganda stories”… https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMzFDpfDwc https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/policing-speech-online-germany-60-minutes-transcript/ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/policing-speech-online-germ... Germany’s constitution (the Basic Law) does protect freedom of opinion and expression, but it explicitly allows restrictions via “general laws” to protect personal honor, youth, and human dignity. Recent enforcement shows how this plays out: police raids have targeted individuals posting “hate speech” or “extremist” content online. What constitutes hate speech or extremist content is “conveniently” interpreted at times.
      - indigo945 1y ago
        The OP claimed that people's homes got raided for "daring to insult the ruling class", your source claims that people's homes got raided for posting extremist racist speech online. Unless you believe in some ridiculous conspiracy where ZE JEWS CONTROL ZE BANKS, this has absolutely no relation to your ability to insult the ruling class: Black people and Muslims are not "the ruling class". And if you do believe in such a conspiracy, please post your personal information such that I can forward it to the relevant agencies and have your house raided. Because we have been through that shit in this country and have no desire to ever see it again.
        looping__lui 1y ago
        I’m just posting what other countries perceive about our way of interpreting and handling hate speech and share context around the legal limitations. You do you. I have no intention engaging with people on “full kool-aid on whatever bubble they are in”. Complain to CBS and the Americans.
        selfmodruntime 1y ago
        Your comment has been debunked countless times. This man's home was not raided for his antisemitism (which is really damn bad!) but for calling a guy an idiot [1]. I suggest you stop spreading lies. [1]: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/nach-schwachkopf-post-prozess-am-amtsgericht-beginnt,UoNpVRx https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/nach-schwachkopf-post-p...
        indigo945 1y ago
        That's a different case though. The Habeck meme thing happened somewhere near Bamberg, the CBS article recounts "state police [...] raided this apartment in northwest Germany". Look, I'm not saying that the police or the ministry of the interior never abuse their power, far from it. (There was also the Andy Grote case a few years back.) But please remember that the original claim we are discussing, from a few comments up in this chain, was that Germany has neither "Freiheit noch Sicherheit" right now. It's ridiculous rabble-rousing to insinuate that because of these outlier events, while concerning, Germany has neither freedom nor security.
    - selfmodruntime 1y ago
      They are true though? Someone just had to shell out 16k because he posted that a politician's head was experiencing a drought [1] [1]: https://www.cicero.de/innenpolitik/meinungsfreiheit-in-gefahr-durre-im-kopf-fuhrt-zu-verurteilung https://www.cicero.de/innenpolitik/meinungsfreiheit-in-gefah...
  - WastedCucumber 1y ago
    Give us some sources sonst bist du einen Eimer.
    - zwnow 1y ago
      Seems to be about Pimmelgate. Andy Grote to be specific.
    - selfmodruntime 1y ago
      Someone calling Robert Habeck a dunce. And please, don't counter with that old Spiegel article that has been debunked a million times.
  - Voultapher 1y ago
    https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2024-11/wirtschaftsminister-robert-habeck-hausdurchsuchung-rentner-antisemitisches-posting https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2024-11/wirtschaftsm...
  - tobias3 1y ago
    This went through the court system and it found that the "raid" was not appropriate and unlawful. Mistakes happen and get corrected. Doesn't mean there is a systemic issue.
- selfmodruntime 1y ago
  Freedom of Speech is being actively harmed by 188 StGB being increasingly abused.
- Parae 1y ago
  Being free to vote doesn't make you feel free and secure. It's not even safe to attend to a protest to ask for a ceasefire in Gaza. So yeah, you can say "I hate Merz", but don't even try to say "Free Palestine"...
  - notTooFarGone 1y ago
    Free Palestine - I already hear them knocking send help
  - kakacik 1y ago
    But its never just 'free palestine' or 'stop the war', is it. Its always mixed with 'from river to the sea', mixed with calls for hatred towards jews, sometimes even jewish genocide. Extremists doing what extremists can, which is being extreme as a default. Don't expect much support from public, and greta's gradual slide to political extremism isn't helping much, most people are fed up with her and her persona just poisons topics with... extremism.
  - earthnail 1y ago
    Free Palestine. There, I said it. Although I think it's a rather dumb slogan, and doesn't even remotely do the situation justice. Seriously though, the notion that free speech is impaired in Germany is completely ridiculous and just a massive hoax. Compare this with the situation in the USA where the same people - like Vance who brazenly attacked Germany for an alleged lack of free speech - were super quick to demand a cancellation of Kimmel, because "you can't say that!" We have laws against hate speech, and they may not be perfect, but they have a reason - we simply don't want to tolerate something like the Nazis shouting "burn the jews" in the name of free speech. Calling for violence does not have to be protected by speaking your mind. That's completely silly. But the idea that Germany is anything but a completely free country is ridiculous. Some of the shit that people say (AfD, BSW) drives me nuts, but well, it's a free country.