5 ms·

Do you agree enforcing immigration laws in this way is good and/or important? If so, can I ask why? What is our end goal?

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> can I ask why? Simply put, Americans gave Republicans a popular mandate to reduce illegal immigration. Much of this was economic: illegal immigrants dilute the labour force. Some, particularly among Latin Americans, rose from perceived injustice: it’s frustrating to go through the American immigration process only to see someone who skipped it live a similar life. Some, e.g. those focused on crime, were just racists. If ICE were simply enforcing the law, I don’t think there would be a national outcry. The problem is they aren’t. All while blowing the military budget of Saudi Arabia [1][2] to accomplish what Obama did with a tenth as much. [1] https://breakingdefense.com/2025/02/saudi-arabia-increases-defense-spending-to-78b-in-2025/ https://breakingdefense.com/2025/02/saudi-arabia-increases-d... [2] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-bill/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-b...
- apparent 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - yibg 1y ago
    What's the cause and what's the effect? Less protests because ICE under Obama wasn't taking such a heavy handed and legally gray approach perhaps?
    - apparent 1y ago
      Great question! It was pretty clear that people would be protesting Trump from the day he was re-elected. His methods undoubtedly haven't helped, but I'm pretty sure there would have been protesters regardless.
  - coredog64 1y ago
    I don't have the links handy, but ISTR that both Obama and Biden counted turning folks away at the border as equivalent to a deportation. That juices the deportation metrics without being nearly so disruptive.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > much easier for Obama to do it because there were not throngs of protesters trying to stop his ICE officers Yes there were [1][2]. New York City Council members were arrested [3]. Obama's ICE was simply more focussed on detaining and deterring illegal immigrants because immigration was a political liability for him. For Trump, efficiacy isn't as important as messaging. [1] https://www.voanews.com/a/barack-obama-immigration-raids-protests-fasting/3148542.html https://www.voanews.com/a/barack-obama-immigration-raids-pro... [2] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3793700 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3793700 [3] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/protest-arrests/2118953/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/protest-arrests/211895...
    - nielsbot 1y ago
      Assumed political liability.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        At the time, sure. With the benefit of hindsight, one of Democrats’ strategic fuckups over the last decade was forgetting that it is one.
        nielsbot 1y ago
        I think the Democrat's strategic fuck up is not standing for up for US democracy, always. Part of that is saying "immigration is good, actually", instead of conceding political positions to the right as they poison our politics. The Dems should have created a counter-narrative. If you believe in liberal, multi-ethnic democracy, then you must say so. The lesson (that I suppose people have forgotten from history) is that our freedoms (as I am talking about it) must be defended, always, and not taken for granted.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- analog31 1y ago
  It was an extremely weak mandate, and in normal times (e.g., assuming the concept of limited government), a weak mandate would be a mandate to act with restraint. Thus a "mandate" doesn't justify what's happening. The Republicans abandoned the economic debate, and shifted focus to social issues. This is what caught the Democrats, including myself, off guard. Rather than stealing our jobs, the immigrants were accused of stealing our cats. Framing it as an economic issue in hindsight seems like a polite way of "steelmanning" the voting base, but I'm not sure it's really justifiable.
- nielsbot 1y ago
  > Americans gave Republicans a popular mandate Trump's win wasn't even close to being a mandate. Also, people (now) hate his enforcement policies. > illegal immigrants dilute the labour force ICE is not simply going after illegal immigrants for one thing. Also, immigrants support the economy. They do jobs Americans won't for one thing. But I'd love to see data on the amount of labor force dilution immigrants are doing. We should really one looking at the ownership class sitting on trillions of dollars of wealth and not sharing. > perceived injustice Exactly. We should have solidarity, not be pulling up the drawbridge behind us. But the current arrangement suits Capital just fine. > If ICE were simply enforcing the law, I don’t think there would be a national outcry. The problem is they aren’t. Agree. They're doing fascism.
- intermerda 1y ago
  > Much of this was economic: illegal immigrants dilute the labour force. Then why are the farmers complaining about it? https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-farm-groups-want-trump-spare-their-workers-deportation-2024-11-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-farm-groups-want-trump-s...
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    You’re asking why massive buyers of labour want cheaper labour?

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> can I ask why? Simply put, Americans gave Republicans a popular mandate to reduce illegal immigration. Much of this was economic: illegal immigrants dilute the labour force. Some, particularly among Latin Americans, rose from perceived injustice: it’s frustrating to go through the American immigration process only to see someone who skipped it live a similar life. Some, e.g. those focused on crime, were just racists. If ICE were simply enforcing the law, I don’t think there would be a national outcry. The problem is they aren’t. All while blowing the military budget of Saudi Arabia [1][2] to accomplish what Obama did with a tenth as much. [1] https://breakingdefense.com/2025/02/saudi-arabia-increases-defense-spending-to-78b-in-2025/ https://breakingdefense.com/2025/02/saudi-arabia-increases-d... [2] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-bill/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ice-budget-big-beautiful-b...

apparent 1y ago
[flagged]
- yibg 1y ago
  What's the cause and what's the effect? Less protests because ICE under Obama wasn't taking such a heavy handed and legally gray approach perhaps?
  - apparent 1y ago
    Great question! It was pretty clear that people would be protesting Trump from the day he was re-elected. His methods undoubtedly haven't helped, but I'm pretty sure there would have been protesters regardless.
- coredog64 1y ago
  I don't have the links handy, but ISTR that both Obama and Biden counted turning folks away at the border as equivalent to a deportation. That juices the deportation metrics without being nearly so disruptive.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > much easier for Obama to do it because there were not throngs of protesters trying to stop his ICE officers Yes there were [1][2]. New York City Council members were arrested [3]. Obama's ICE was simply more focussed on detaining and deterring illegal immigrants because immigration was a political liability for him. For Trump, efficiacy isn't as important as messaging. [1] https://www.voanews.com/a/barack-obama-immigration-raids-protests-fasting/3148542.html https://www.voanews.com/a/barack-obama-immigration-raids-pro... [2] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3793700 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3793700 [3] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/protest-arrests/2118953/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/protest-arrests/211895...
  - nielsbot 1y ago
    Assumed political liability.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      At the time, sure. With the benefit of hindsight, one of Democrats’ strategic fuckups over the last decade was forgetting that it is one.
      - nielsbot 1y ago
        I think the Democrat's strategic fuck up is not standing for up for US democracy, always. Part of that is saying "immigration is good, actually", instead of conceding political positions to the right as they poison our politics. The Dems should have created a counter-narrative. If you believe in liberal, multi-ethnic democracy, then you must say so. The lesson (that I suppose people have forgotten from history) is that our freedoms (as I am talking about it) must be defended, always, and not taken for granted.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
analog31 1y ago
It was an extremely weak mandate, and in normal times (e.g., assuming the concept of limited government), a weak mandate would be a mandate to act with restraint. Thus a "mandate" doesn't justify what's happening. The Republicans abandoned the economic debate, and shifted focus to social issues. This is what caught the Democrats, including myself, off guard. Rather than stealing our jobs, the immigrants were accused of stealing our cats. Framing it as an economic issue in hindsight seems like a polite way of "steelmanning" the voting base, but I'm not sure it's really justifiable.
nielsbot 1y ago
> Americans gave Republicans a popular mandate Trump's win wasn't even close to being a mandate. Also, people (now) hate his enforcement policies. > illegal immigrants dilute the labour force ICE is not simply going after illegal immigrants for one thing. Also, immigrants support the economy. They do jobs Americans won't for one thing. But I'd love to see data on the amount of labor force dilution immigrants are doing. We should really one looking at the ownership class sitting on trillions of dollars of wealth and not sharing. > perceived injustice Exactly. We should have solidarity, not be pulling up the drawbridge behind us. But the current arrangement suits Capital just fine. > If ICE were simply enforcing the law, I don’t think there would be a national outcry. The problem is they aren’t. Agree. They're doing fascism.
intermerda 1y ago
> Much of this was economic: illegal immigrants dilute the labour force. Then why are the farmers complaining about it? https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-farm-groups-want-trump-spare-their-workers-deportation-2024-11-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-farm-groups-want-trump-s...
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  You’re asking why massive buyers of labour want cheaper labour?