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"We must negate the machines-that-think. Humans must set their own guidelines. This is not something machines can do. Reasoning depends upon programming, not on

by b34k3r 1y ago

"We must negate the machines-that-think. Humans must set their own guidelines. This is not something machines can do. Reasoning depends upon programming, not on hardware, and we are the ultimate program! Our Jihad is a "dump program." We dump the things which destroy us as humans!". I know, Dune and yeah, i get it - science fiction aint real life - but im still into these vibes. Anyone wanna start a club?

Barrin92 1y ago
>We must negate the machines-that-think I wish we had machines that actually thought because they'd at least put an end to whatever this is. In the words of Schopenhauer, this is the worst of all possible worlds not because it couldn't be worse but because if it was a little bit worse it'd at least cease to exist. It's just bad enough so that we're stuck with the same dreck forever. This isn't the Dune future but the Wall-E future. The problem with the Terminator franchise and all those Eliezer Yudkowsky folks is that they are too optimistic. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NdN153giLdI/sddefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NdN153giLdI/sddefault.jpg
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- measurablefunc 1y ago
  Technocracy is ascendant, the only question is whether you subscribe to the optimistic or pessimistic variant. But don't worry, the current state of affairs is a fluke & equilibrium will be restored once all the easily combustible sources of fossil fuels are exhausted.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
0xEF 1y ago
"Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in hopes that this would set them free, but that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." Yeah, I'm in. Let me know when and where the meetings are held.
- SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
  > other men with machines to enslave them The machines didn't enslave anyone in this scenario. "Men with machines" did. I think of the techbro oligarchs who decide what a feed algorithm shows.
- fragmede 1y ago
  We're on Salusa Secundus, second pylon to the right, just off the Imperial Penal Complex. 6pm, Wednesday. Use the green parrot to enter, otherwise you'll be cast out. We don't want to let anybody from IX in.
wartywhoa23 1y ago
Count me in!
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
jMyles 1y ago
I'm not sure that this message is meant to be taken as viable, let alone sacrosanct. <spoiler> I interpreted Thufir Hawat's massive misunderstanding of Lady Jessica's motivation (which was a huge plot point in the book but sadly didn't make it into the films) as evidence that the conclusion that humans are capable of the exact same undesirable patterns as machines. Did I read that wrong? </spoiler>
- Modified3019 1y ago
  I had never made that exact connection, but my impression of the Dune universe was that it was hopelessly dark and horrific, basically humans being relentlessly awful to each other with no way out.
  - righthand 1y ago
    It’s kind of presented that way from the view of anyone under the oppression (Paul, Fremen, Jessica, etc). Therefor Paul’s vision is the way out, right? The whole thing is a mechanic to subdue the reader before they reveal that Paul doesn’t care he just wants to do things the way he sees it and controls it.
    - unsnap_biceps 1y ago
      The golden path was to break prescient vision and prevent any possible extinction of the human race. Paul actually turned his back on the golden path and became the preacher, trying to prevent it, but after his death, his son, Leto II, followed the path.
  - Kreutzer 1y ago
    I don't think its quite reducible to that. Take a step back and look at how you have an Emperor whose power is offset by both the Landsraad and the navigator's guild. This arrangement has all come about because of a scarce resource only available on one desert planet which makes space travel possible, and which has a population who have been fiercely fighting a guerilla war for centuries. It was all bound to come undone whether Paul accepted his part or not.
zer00eyz 1y ago
> Anyone wanna start a club? You would not be the first, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite Funny thing is that we still have hand made fabric today, and were still employing a frighting number of people in the manufacturing of clothing. The issue is that we're making more lower quality products rather than higher quality items.
Terr_ 1y ago
Well, I've been surrounded by "machines that think" for my entire life, formed of unfathomably complex swarms of nanobots. So far we seem to get along. If there were a new kind of "machines that think"--and they aren't a dangerous predator--they could be a contrast to help us understand ourselves and be better. The danger from these (dumber) machines is that they may be used for reflecting, laundering, and amplifying our own worst impulses and confusions.
- baobun 1y ago
  > unfathomably complex swarms of nanobots ???
  - thoroughburro 1y ago
    They are referring to the bacteria we animals need to survive.
    - lovich 1y ago
      I assumed it was a reference to humans being multicellular life as each cell is nanobot sized and automata
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - Terr_ 1y ago
    It's you: A swarm of ~37 trillion cooperating nanobots, each one complex beyond human understanding, constructing and animating a titanic mobile megafortress that shambling across a planet consumed by a prehistoric grey-goo event.
    - array_key_first 1y ago
      It's not me, because I'm human, and that's not. Why does that matter? Isn't it all the same? No, because I'm human, and I can make special exceptions for humans. Isn't that perfect hypocrisy? Yes, but I'm human, and it's okay because I get to decide what's okay and I say it's okay because I'm human. See also: why can I eat a burger but Jeffrey Dahmer went to prison?
viraptor 1y ago
Ted Kaczynski went that way, but was more of a lone wolf guy.
bluefirebrand 1y ago
Yes, I am in I will never bow before the machine god

by b34k3r 1y ago

Barrin92 1y ago

>We must negate the machines-that-think I wish we had machines that actually thought because they'd at least put an end to whatever this is. In the words of Schopenhauer, this is the worst of all possible worlds not because it couldn't be worse but because if it was a little bit worse it'd at least cease to exist. It's just bad enough so that we're stuck with the same dreck forever. This isn't the Dune future but the Wall-E future. The problem with the Terminator franchise and all those Eliezer Yudkowsky folks is that they are too optimistic. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NdN153giLdI/sddefault.jpg https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NdN153giLdI/sddefault.jpg

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
measurablefunc 1y ago
Technocracy is ascendant, the only question is whether you subscribe to the optimistic or pessimistic variant. But don't worry, the current state of affairs is a fluke & equilibrium will be restored once all the easily combustible sources of fossil fuels are exhausted.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

0xEF 1y ago

"Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in hopes that this would set them free, but that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." Yeah, I'm in. Let me know when and where the meetings are held.

SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
> other men with machines to enslave them The machines didn't enslave anyone in this scenario. "Men with machines" did. I think of the techbro oligarchs who decide what a feed algorithm shows.
fragmede 1y ago
We're on Salusa Secundus, second pylon to the right, just off the Imperial Penal Complex. 6pm, Wednesday. Use the green parrot to enter, otherwise you'll be cast out. We don't want to let anybody from IX in.

wartywhoa23 1y ago

Count me in!

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

jMyles 1y ago

I'm not sure that this message is meant to be taken as viable, let alone sacrosanct. <spoiler> I interpreted Thufir Hawat's massive misunderstanding of Lady Jessica's motivation (which was a huge plot point in the book but sadly didn't make it into the films) as evidence that the conclusion that humans are capable of the exact same undesirable patterns as machines. Did I read that wrong? </spoiler>

Modified3019 1y ago
I had never made that exact connection, but my impression of the Dune universe was that it was hopelessly dark and horrific, basically humans being relentlessly awful to each other with no way out.
- righthand 1y ago
  It’s kind of presented that way from the view of anyone under the oppression (Paul, Fremen, Jessica, etc). Therefor Paul’s vision is the way out, right? The whole thing is a mechanic to subdue the reader before they reveal that Paul doesn’t care he just wants to do things the way he sees it and controls it.
  - unsnap_biceps 1y ago
    The golden path was to break prescient vision and prevent any possible extinction of the human race. Paul actually turned his back on the golden path and became the preacher, trying to prevent it, but after his death, his son, Leto II, followed the path.
- Kreutzer 1y ago
  I don't think its quite reducible to that. Take a step back and look at how you have an Emperor whose power is offset by both the Landsraad and the navigator's guild. This arrangement has all come about because of a scarce resource only available on one desert planet which makes space travel possible, and which has a population who have been fiercely fighting a guerilla war for centuries. It was all bound to come undone whether Paul accepted his part or not.

zer00eyz 1y ago

> Anyone wanna start a club? You would not be the first, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite Funny thing is that we still have hand made fabric today, and were still employing a frighting number of people in the manufacturing of clothing. The issue is that we're making more lower quality products rather than higher quality items.

Terr_ 1y ago

Well, I've been surrounded by "machines that think" for my entire life, formed of unfathomably complex swarms of nanobots. So far we seem to get along. If there were a new kind of "machines that think"--and they aren't a dangerous predator--they could be a contrast to help us understand ourselves and be better. The danger from these (dumber) machines is that they may be used for reflecting, laundering, and amplifying our own worst impulses and confusions.

baobun 1y ago
> unfathomably complex swarms of nanobots ???
- thoroughburro 1y ago
  They are referring to the bacteria we animals need to survive.
  - lovich 1y ago
    I assumed it was a reference to humans being multicellular life as each cell is nanobot sized and automata
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- Terr_ 1y ago
  It's you: A swarm of ~37 trillion cooperating nanobots, each one complex beyond human understanding, constructing and animating a titanic mobile megafortress that shambling across a planet consumed by a prehistoric grey-goo event.
  - array_key_first 1y ago
    It's not me, because I'm human, and that's not. Why does that matter? Isn't it all the same? No, because I'm human, and I can make special exceptions for humans. Isn't that perfect hypocrisy? Yes, but I'm human, and it's okay because I get to decide what's okay and I say it's okay because I'm human. See also: why can I eat a burger but Jeffrey Dahmer went to prison?

viraptor 1y ago

Ted Kaczynski went that way, but was more of a lone wolf guy.

bluefirebrand 1y ago

Yes, I am in I will never bow before the machine god