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Personally I feel like keeping a list of annoying ad brands and avoiding them would take up too much of my mental space, and it would lead me occasionally to ba

by dahart 1y ago

Personally I feel like keeping a list of annoying ad brands and avoiding them would take up too much of my mental space, and it would lead me occasionally to bad purchasing decisions. Advertising is what it is, sometimes manipulative and sometimes very annoying, but basically all companies have to do it and they tend to do what works and behave similarly. As long as I have a choice, I’ll avoid advertising in general, regardless of whether it’s annoying. There is evidence that louder ads work: https://news.nd.edu/news/loud-and-clear-high-energy-ads-keep-viewers-tuned-in-study-shows/ https://news.nd.edu/news/loud-and-clear-high-energy-ads-keep... This feel unsurprising to me given the long known fact that people tend to rate audio quality based on volume. (It’s what the stereo sales scene in Fast Times at Ridgemont High was based on.)

bluefirebrand 1y ago
> Advertising is what it is, sometimes manipulative and sometimes very annoying I think the difference between you and I is that I think it is always manipulative, and therefore is always very annoying There are no honest advertisers. Only scum.
- dahart 1y ago
  I could agree that advertising is ‘always manipulative’ in the sense that, of course, it always seeks to sell you something and hope you’re swayed into buying. Most of it isn’t secretly or overtly manipulative, most of it is someone saying out loud “here’s my thing, buy it”. > There are no honest advertisers. Only scum. That’s a step too far, IMO, and before saying that you should at least reflect on how some advertising somewhere likely benefits you. There are many kinds of advertising. Advertising is not necessarily dishonest. If you work for a for-profit company, your company probably advertises. If you work for a non-profit company, your company probably advertises. If you work for a government agency, your org probably advertises. Advertising is any form of letting people know you or your services or goods exist. If you’re only talking about a subset of that, we should discuss how you’re defining advertising. We are chatting on the website of a venture capital company. This very forum you’re using is a subtle advertisement, and a significant portion of the chatter here is about how to start a company, including marketing and advertising. The type of ad/marketing that HN is is neither annoying nor manipulative. If you ever start your own company - and I recommend it - that’s when you learn the fact that advertising is both absolutely necessary and fairly difficult to do well. If you ever do anything in public, announcing it is advertising. The vast majority of companies advertise, as do many government and non-profit and public-interest organizations, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Advertising is a huge part of the business model that funds the arts in the US, and without it, we’d have a lot fewer plays, dancing, and music.
  - me-vs-cat 1y ago
    > Advertising is any form of letting people know you or your services or goods exist. If you’re only talking about a subset of that, we should discuss how you’re defining advertising. Sure, let's discuss. I cannot agree. Even if it isn't necessarily wrong, that's not strictly correct either. I'll call it a generalization well past the point of not being useful. Reading several dictionaries' definitions of "marketing" and "advertising", there is room between them, with advertising focusing on paid placement in every one. The American Marketing Association says: "Marketing is a business practice that involves identifying, predicting and meeting customer needs. Advertising is a business practice where a company pays to place its messaging or branding in a particular location." https://www.ama.org/marketing-vs-advertising/ https://www.ama.org/marketing-vs-advertising/ Yet "paid" isn't enough, and not only because of the common phrase "paid advertisement". A more accurate distinction might be made with intent. Perhaps: an advertisement is intended to change a viewer's trajectory to the advertiser's desired outcome when the viewer is not already heading in that direction. This is not completely satisfactory. I believe most people would find it a little off or burying the lede, though not necessarily wrong, to hear, "https://adobe.com/photoshop https://adobe.com/photoshop is advertising for Photoshop", in a way they wouldn't if "promotes" was used instead. I believe most would have a similar impression, "that's a rather weird way to phrase it", if you were to say a business is advertising in the phone book when they are only listed by name, address, and number -- the most basic listing.
    - dahart 1y ago
      It’s fine if you want to define advertising as paid announcements here in this thread, though words have multiple definitions and I’d be willing to bet every single dictionary you checked includes definitions that don’t involve payment (I just checked a few as well). Paid promotion might be the most common definition, I can accept that, but it’s also a fact that use of the word “advertising” in non-commercial and non-paid contexts is quite common and perfectly valid in English speech and writing. Most common does not equate to only, and it’s a mistake to imply otherwise. Defining ads as requiring payment leaves out some obvious examples that aren’t “paid”, like companies next to freeways or streets that put commercial advertisement murals on their buildings. It’s routine for billboard companies, magazines, publishers, movie trailers, etc., to advertise the space they offer for paid ads. It’s common for Google to advertise Google services on google.com. Nobody is “paid” for the ads in those cases, not in the sense you’re talking about, and I’m sure those are still ads by your definition, whatever it is, right? So, for the purposes of this discussion, assume I accept your definition of advertising as being paid promotion. Nothing in your comment addressed my point that paid advertising is the business model by which the arts largely gets funded, nor that you likely benefit financially from paid advertising by organizations you’re part of. I don’t know that for a fact, of course, I’m just betting based on the fact that the vast majority of people are part of, or make a living from, organizations that do paid advertising. You haven’t established any reasons why paid advertising would be considered “dishonest”, or why advertisers should be considered “scum”. Does that apply to your employer? Does that apply to grant foundations or business donors that fund plays or concerts? Does that apply to the government? Kickstarter or gofundme campaigns? Startup companies? Paid PSAs? There are some ads and companies that I would agree are dishonest and scummily manipulative, like cigarettes. But there are also plenty of ads that are innocuous and not irritating, and quite a few ads and advertisers who are good and kind people that support their communities and public works.

by dahart 1y ago

bluefirebrand 1y ago

> Advertising is what it is, sometimes manipulative and sometimes very annoying I think the difference between you and I is that I think it is always manipulative, and therefore is always very annoying There are no honest advertisers. Only scum.

dahart 1y ago
I could agree that advertising is ‘always manipulative’ in the sense that, of course, it always seeks to sell you something and hope you’re swayed into buying. Most of it isn’t secretly or overtly manipulative, most of it is someone saying out loud “here’s my thing, buy it”. > There are no honest advertisers. Only scum. That’s a step too far, IMO, and before saying that you should at least reflect on how some advertising somewhere likely benefits you. There are many kinds of advertising. Advertising is not necessarily dishonest. If you work for a for-profit company, your company probably advertises. If you work for a non-profit company, your company probably advertises. If you work for a government agency, your org probably advertises. Advertising is any form of letting people know you or your services or goods exist. If you’re only talking about a subset of that, we should discuss how you’re defining advertising. We are chatting on the website of a venture capital company. This very forum you’re using is a subtle advertisement, and a significant portion of the chatter here is about how to start a company, including marketing and advertising. The type of ad/marketing that HN is is neither annoying nor manipulative. If you ever start your own company - and I recommend it - that’s when you learn the fact that advertising is both absolutely necessary and fairly difficult to do well. If you ever do anything in public, announcing it is advertising. The vast majority of companies advertise, as do many government and non-profit and public-interest organizations, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Advertising is a huge part of the business model that funds the arts in the US, and without it, we’d have a lot fewer plays, dancing, and music.
- me-vs-cat 1y ago
  > Advertising is any form of letting people know you or your services or goods exist. If you’re only talking about a subset of that, we should discuss how you’re defining advertising. Sure, let's discuss. I cannot agree. Even if it isn't necessarily wrong, that's not strictly correct either. I'll call it a generalization well past the point of not being useful. Reading several dictionaries' definitions of "marketing" and "advertising", there is room between them, with advertising focusing on paid placement in every one. The American Marketing Association says: "Marketing is a business practice that involves identifying, predicting and meeting customer needs. Advertising is a business practice where a company pays to place its messaging or branding in a particular location." https://www.ama.org/marketing-vs-advertising/ https://www.ama.org/marketing-vs-advertising/ Yet "paid" isn't enough, and not only because of the common phrase "paid advertisement". A more accurate distinction might be made with intent. Perhaps: an advertisement is intended to change a viewer's trajectory to the advertiser's desired outcome when the viewer is not already heading in that direction. This is not completely satisfactory. I believe most people would find it a little off or burying the lede, though not necessarily wrong, to hear, "https://adobe.com/photoshop https://adobe.com/photoshop is advertising for Photoshop", in a way they wouldn't if "promotes" was used instead. I believe most would have a similar impression, "that's a rather weird way to phrase it", if you were to say a business is advertising in the phone book when they are only listed by name, address, and number -- the most basic listing.
  - dahart 1y ago
    It’s fine if you want to define advertising as paid announcements here in this thread, though words have multiple definitions and I’d be willing to bet every single dictionary you checked includes definitions that don’t involve payment (I just checked a few as well). Paid promotion might be the most common definition, I can accept that, but it’s also a fact that use of the word “advertising” in non-commercial and non-paid contexts is quite common and perfectly valid in English speech and writing. Most common does not equate to only, and it’s a mistake to imply otherwise. Defining ads as requiring payment leaves out some obvious examples that aren’t “paid”, like companies next to freeways or streets that put commercial advertisement murals on their buildings. It’s routine for billboard companies, magazines, publishers, movie trailers, etc., to advertise the space they offer for paid ads. It’s common for Google to advertise Google services on google.com. Nobody is “paid” for the ads in those cases, not in the sense you’re talking about, and I’m sure those are still ads by your definition, whatever it is, right? So, for the purposes of this discussion, assume I accept your definition of advertising as being paid promotion. Nothing in your comment addressed my point that paid advertising is the business model by which the arts largely gets funded, nor that you likely benefit financially from paid advertising by organizations you’re part of. I don’t know that for a fact, of course, I’m just betting based on the fact that the vast majority of people are part of, or make a living from, organizations that do paid advertising. You haven’t established any reasons why paid advertising would be considered “dishonest”, or why advertisers should be considered “scum”. Does that apply to your employer? Does that apply to grant foundations or business donors that fund plays or concerts? Does that apply to the government? Kickstarter or gofundme campaigns? Startup companies? Paid PSAs? There are some ads and companies that I would agree are dishonest and scummily manipulative, like cigarettes. But there are also plenty of ads that are innocuous and not irritating, and quite a few ads and advertisers who are good and kind people that support their communities and public works.