13 ms·

Irish Minister for Justice considers Apple’s iOS 6 Maps dangerous

57 points by k-mcgrady 14y ago

Permit 14y ago
My first thought was that it's ridiculous to assume pilots would ever be reliant on Apple Maps when trying to land their aircraft. Then I remembered a few similar occurrences: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8366607/RAF-pilots-used-Google-Maps-for-Libya-rescue.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianoce... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDgC4FMftpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDgC4FMftpg http://news.softpedia.com/news/Queensland-Floods-Helicopter-Crew-Used-Google-Maps-to-Locate-Victims-Video-236488.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/Queensland-Floods-Helicopter-...
- mtgx 14y ago
  Quite a few airlines have handed out iPads to pilots already. It wouldn't be a stretch for that to happen eventually...
  - protomyth 14y ago
    The pilots are not using the built-in Maps app.
    - prothid 14y ago
      Pilot here. I will confirm this, and also add that there are many other ways to find an airport (paper maps, atc, handheld aviation gps, built-in gps, airport beacons at night, and also just looking out the window). In an emergency, the last thing I'd do is have my head down in an ipad/iphone. From the aerial shot it appears clear that it's not an airport, but it is probably the largest field around, so it would be a target in an engine failure scenario regardless.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - neurotech1 14y ago
    Everyone is laughing now, but the Keyhole satellite imaging application is used by military planners. The consumer version is known as Google Earth, since Keyhole inc. was acquired by Google. The resolution and geo-references might not be as good as the Keyhole Military version, but it isn't "dangerously" bad either. A pilot could quite reasonably use geographic way-points for a respectable approach and landing.
- arjn 14y ago
  Could happen in an emergency, and that is the point.
- qq66 14y ago
  If you are out of other options, you use whatever you have to keep yourself alive.
- mikeash 14y ago
  I'm not going to say that nobody would ever do it, but I will say that any pilot who relies on a smartphone's built-in mapping app to find airports deserves the outcome he gets.
  - wahnfrieden 14y ago
    It's a hazard to others.
    - lollerpops 14y ago
      What if the pilot has a feature phone with no maps at all??? Think of the children!
- bdonlan 14y ago
  There's a big difference between using consumer maps for rescue operations when no other charts are available, and flying in the UK where there are high-quality VFR and IFR paper charts (which all pilots are expected to have for any areas they're flying through, either for primary navigation or just in case the GPS dies), certified cockpit GPS data, as well as radar services available to help you find a suitable airport.
brudgers 14y ago
Somewhere, there's an intern with "While at Apple, developed state of the art automated feature identification algorithms for mapping team" on his resume.
- acuozzo 14y ago
  > Somewhere, there's an intern with "While at Apple, developed state of the art automated feature identification algorithms for mapping team" on his resume. I feel worse for the intern with ``Microsoft Windows Notepad'' on his resume.
  - cheald 14y ago
    In fairness, Notepad manages to basically do what you expect it to.
    - Natsu 14y ago
      It has an annoying file size limitations, though. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578
      - yskchu 14y ago
        > It has an annoying file size limitations, though. > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578 The link you submitted is for: Microsoft Windows 3.0 Standard Edition Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.1 Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.11
        Natsu 14y ago
        My bad. I can assure you that they persisted long after that, though. I hardly ever used 3.1 and I replaced Notepad long ago due to them. Vim is far more useful, anyhow.
  - jbigelow76 14y ago
    Responsibility for an application that's been used by tens, if not hundreds, of millions of users? You could do worse on a resume.
nachteilig 14y ago
I can't speak to Ireland, but pilots using the Maps app for navigation wouldn't "fly" in the US. There are electronic cockpit apps that can be used on an iPad, but Maps isn't one of them.
- k-mcgrady 14y ago
  I don't think that's what the Justice Minister means. It's conceivable that in an emergency, as a last resort, the pilot of a small plane may use the Maps app on an iPad or iPhone so scout potential landing areas. Obviously it's unlikely to happen but it is a possibility (probably not on a 747 though).
  - patrickk 14y ago
    I would love to hear a sequence of events that could possibly involve a pilot attempting to land on the basis of information from an iPhone map. There's whole emergency systems in place to ensure things like this don't happen- you know, basic radio contact with the ground being one obvious example. Irish Government ministers should be dealing with our sovereign debt crisis rather than spouting crap about stuff they've no idea about.
    - barrkel 14y ago
      There is already a post on this thread about similar events already having occurred - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4550431 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4550431
      - _djo_ 14y ago
        Didn't see any reliance on a maps app for emergency navigation. In the one example the pilots printed out an image from Google Earth as a guide to the terrain of the landing area, they still used their eyes and brains to decide how to land once they got there. In the other they used the app to locate street addresses, but that wasn't critical navigation and the same could've been achieved with a standard street map. I have yet to hear of any pilot relying on a maps app like Google Maps in an emergency.
digitalengineer 14y ago
Wait! There's an App for that? (Autoland?)
- neurotech1 14y ago
  Legend has it that a Qantas 747 tried that. Problem: Autoland landed rough and to the left of runway Solution: Autoland not installed on aircraft. Apparently, when the 747 first came out they had issues with the avionics box for autoland, and someone didn't tape-off the panel in the cockpit as unserviceable.
  - joshu 14y ago
    Re: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: Re:
  - rmccue 14y ago
    Not sure where this is from, but I doubt it's true. Qantas has a fairly good safety record, and as far as I can tell (from Wikipedia and memory), only two incidents have occurred with 747s, and only one during landing: a 747-400 overran the runway in Thailand during a storm. Sounds more like an urban legend to me.
    - neurotech1 14y ago
      First of all: Qantas have had more "incidents" than that. The Bangkok mishap was the first "accident" (substantial damage to the jet) since they started flying jet airliners. A Qantas pilot explained the details of how it could have happened. If certain pre-landing checks were not done, and the module was missing, its Plausible for non-functioning autoland in a 747-200 to go unnoticed. Accidently going off the side of the runway pavement could result in little damage, assuming the jet stayed controllable.
davebees 14y ago
I think his statement was more light-hearted than interpreted here.
- ilcavero 14y ago
  agreed, Irish times interprets it as tongue in cheek http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0920/breaking20.html?via=mr http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0920/break...
sp332 14y ago
The site is over its bandwidth limit, here's a cache http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A%2F%2Fsociable.co%2Fmeme%2Fthats-not-an-airport-its-a-farm-irish-minister-for-justice-is-not-happy-with-ios6s-apple-maps%2F http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A...
_djo_ 14y ago
This was just a publicity measure for the guy's constituency. No pilot flying in VFR conditions is going to need to rely on a consumer map application running on a smartphone or tablet in the event of an emergency, because they're trained to know their alternate airports and to look out at the ground to identify suitable emergency landing areas. Similarly IFR pilots are required to file flight plans which often require explicit identification of alternate airports in the case of an emergency and they carry so much redundant equipment that a need to fall back on Apple Maps isn't a realistic scenario. If you want to highlight the real dangers of people relying on maps with faulty data there are far better examples. For instance in the city in which I live Google Maps for years showed a high-end hotel as being in a really, really bad part of town. Unsuspecting tourists could get themselves into a bad spot just following what their maps app was telling them. With people relying on the built-in maps apps on their phones to an ever-growing extent, Apple needs to put in a lot of effort to fix Apple Maps and they need to do it fast.
- blaines 14y ago
  It sounds like you're a US pilot, are the regulations similar internationally? Though I have heard of some pretty ridiculous landing decisions [1], I doubt this map error will increase Airfield's chances of someone landing there. So I totally agree, the situation described is rather preposterous. [1] http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_northern_az/other/dps-plane-makes-emergency-landing-on-arizona-highway http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_northern_az/other/dps-p...
  - _djo_ 14y ago
    I have experience with the regulations in South Africa, but they are similar internationally as a result of co-operation through the ICAO and other agencies. Most of the world also follows the lead of the US FAA and European JAA in terms of civil aviation regulations. And yes, pilots have had to make some bizarre emergency landings over the years, but if you're in a situation where the engine quits and you have to get on the ground safely quick the last thing you'll be doing is looking down at your phone or tablet. So yep, preposterous.
ricardobeat 14y ago
Question: are maps in a TomTom GPS as broken as these?
kylec 14y ago
"Clearly the designation is not only wrong but is dangerously misleading in that it could result in a pilot, unfamiliar with the area, in an emergency situation and without other available information, attempting a landing." Maybe you shouldn't have named it "airfield", then?
- edoloughlin 14y ago
  > Maybe you shouldn't have named it "airfield", then? It's been there since the 1820s.
- derleth 14y ago
  I remember a story my mom tells about her, a Montanan until her adulthood, going to Chicago with her new husband (born and raised in Skokie) and asking him what kind of planes land in Wrigley Field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrigley_Field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrigley_Field See, in Montana 'field' is always (or nearly always) short for 'airfield'; there's no way to tell how language will change over time and place.
- mikeash 14y ago
  I think you meant to say, maybe the aviation industry shouldn't have chosen a name that matched that of a farm.
Irishsteve 14y ago
This is a common problem in Ireland. The locals are constantly using google maps and now apple maps to land their planes.
lurkinggrue 14y ago
I'll just leave this here: http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/ http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/
joshu 14y ago
Can someone file a bug to rename the farm?
nekojima 14y ago
Hope no one using Apple's iOS6 maps tries to land a plane at the "Airport Strip" in Mississauga. Its a strip club.
zaphar 14y ago
I don't know how Apple could expect anything less than this response. They are coming from behind with the incumbent king of maps holding a lead they couldn't possibly hope to close in a first release. Possibly not in the first several releases. It's a hard problem. Even if you get a good source of data you still have to present it correctly to the user and the best way to fix issues is to get it into the hands of users. If you allow competing maps on the platform though the users aren't likely to use yours unless the data is at least as good and the experience is superior. I'm not sure this was a battle they should have picked.
lynchdt 14y ago
Just be happy you don't live in Ireland. [1] Our prime minister explaining what cloud computing is - "A wireless connection to shared storage" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzaQxLFl3rQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzaQxLFl3rQ [2] A senator explaining why the abundance of rain on the west coast of Ireland makes it particularly suitable as a base for, wait for it, _cloud_ technology - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056460271 https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056460271
- davebees 14y ago
  The second one was a hoax.

57 points by k-mcgrady 14y ago

My first thought was that it's ridiculous to assume pilots would ever be reliant on Apple Maps when trying to land their aircraft. Then I remembered a few similar occurrences: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8366607/RAF-pilots-used-Google-Maps-for-Libya-rescue.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianoce... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDgC4FMftpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDgC4FMftpg http://news.softpedia.com/news/Queensland-Floods-Helicopter-Crew-Used-Google-Maps-to-Locate-Victims-Video-236488.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/Queensland-Floods-Helicopter-...

mtgx 14y ago
Quite a few airlines have handed out iPads to pilots already. It wouldn't be a stretch for that to happen eventually...
- protomyth 14y ago
  The pilots are not using the built-in Maps app.
  - prothid 14y ago
    Pilot here. I will confirm this, and also add that there are many other ways to find an airport (paper maps, atc, handheld aviation gps, built-in gps, airport beacons at night, and also just looking out the window). In an emergency, the last thing I'd do is have my head down in an ipad/iphone. From the aerial shot it appears clear that it's not an airport, but it is probably the largest field around, so it would be a target in an engine failure scenario regardless.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- neurotech1 14y ago
  Everyone is laughing now, but the Keyhole satellite imaging application is used by military planners. The consumer version is known as Google Earth, since Keyhole inc. was acquired by Google. The resolution and geo-references might not be as good as the Keyhole Military version, but it isn't "dangerously" bad either. A pilot could quite reasonably use geographic way-points for a respectable approach and landing.
arjn 14y ago
Could happen in an emergency, and that is the point.
qq66 14y ago
If you are out of other options, you use whatever you have to keep yourself alive.
mikeash 14y ago
I'm not going to say that nobody would ever do it, but I will say that any pilot who relies on a smartphone's built-in mapping app to find airports deserves the outcome he gets.
- wahnfrieden 14y ago
  It's a hazard to others.
  - lollerpops 14y ago
    What if the pilot has a feature phone with no maps at all??? Think of the children!
bdonlan 14y ago
There's a big difference between using consumer maps for rescue operations when no other charts are available, and flying in the UK where there are high-quality VFR and IFR paper charts (which all pilots are expected to have for any areas they're flying through, either for primary navigation or just in case the GPS dies), certified cockpit GPS data, as well as radar services available to help you find a suitable airport.

brudgers 14y ago

Somewhere, there's an intern with "While at Apple, developed state of the art automated feature identification algorithms for mapping team" on his resume.

acuozzo 14y ago
> Somewhere, there's an intern with "While at Apple, developed state of the art automated feature identification algorithms for mapping team" on his resume. I feel worse for the intern with ``Microsoft Windows Notepad'' on his resume.
- cheald 14y ago
  In fairness, Notepad manages to basically do what you expect it to.
  - Natsu 14y ago
    It has an annoying file size limitations, though. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578
    - yskchu 14y ago
      > It has an annoying file size limitations, though. > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/59578 The link you submitted is for: Microsoft Windows 3.0 Standard Edition Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.1 Microsoft Windows for Workgroups 3.11
      - Natsu 14y ago
        My bad. I can assure you that they persisted long after that, though. I hardly ever used 3.1 and I replaced Notepad long ago due to them. Vim is far more useful, anyhow.
- jbigelow76 14y ago
  Responsibility for an application that's been used by tens, if not hundreds, of millions of users? You could do worse on a resume.

nachteilig 14y ago

I can't speak to Ireland, but pilots using the Maps app for navigation wouldn't "fly" in the US. There are electronic cockpit apps that can be used on an iPad, but Maps isn't one of them.

k-mcgrady 14y ago
I don't think that's what the Justice Minister means. It's conceivable that in an emergency, as a last resort, the pilot of a small plane may use the Maps app on an iPad or iPhone so scout potential landing areas. Obviously it's unlikely to happen but it is a possibility (probably not on a 747 though).
- patrickk 14y ago
  I would love to hear a sequence of events that could possibly involve a pilot attempting to land on the basis of information from an iPhone map. There's whole emergency systems in place to ensure things like this don't happen- you know, basic radio contact with the ground being one obvious example. Irish Government ministers should be dealing with our sovereign debt crisis rather than spouting crap about stuff they've no idea about.
  - barrkel 14y ago
    There is already a post on this thread about similar events already having occurred - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4550431 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4550431
    - _djo_ 14y ago
      Didn't see any reliance on a maps app for emergency navigation. In the one example the pilots printed out an image from Google Earth as a guide to the terrain of the landing area, they still used their eyes and brains to decide how to land once they got there. In the other they used the app to locate street addresses, but that wasn't critical navigation and the same could've been achieved with a standard street map. I have yet to hear of any pilot relying on a maps app like Google Maps in an emergency.

digitalengineer 14y ago

Wait! There's an App for that? (Autoland?)

neurotech1 14y ago
Legend has it that a Qantas 747 tried that. Problem: Autoland landed rough and to the left of runway Solution: Autoland not installed on aircraft. Apparently, when the 747 first came out they had issues with the avionics box for autoland, and someone didn't tape-off the panel in the cockpit as unserviceable.
- joshu 14y ago
  Re: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: Re:
- rmccue 14y ago
  Not sure where this is from, but I doubt it's true. Qantas has a fairly good safety record, and as far as I can tell (from Wikipedia and memory), only two incidents have occurred with 747s, and only one during landing: a 747-400 overran the runway in Thailand during a storm. Sounds more like an urban legend to me.
  - neurotech1 14y ago
    First of all: Qantas have had more "incidents" than that. The Bangkok mishap was the first "accident" (substantial damage to the jet) since they started flying jet airliners. A Qantas pilot explained the details of how it could have happened. If certain pre-landing checks were not done, and the module was missing, its Plausible for non-functioning autoland in a 747-200 to go unnoticed. Accidently going off the side of the runway pavement could result in little damage, assuming the jet stayed controllable.

davebees 14y ago

I think his statement was more light-hearted than interpreted here.

ilcavero 14y ago
agreed, Irish times interprets it as tongue in cheek http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0920/breaking20.html?via=mr http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0920/break...

sp332 14y ago

The site is over its bandwidth limit, here's a cache http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A%2F%2Fsociable.co%2Fmeme%2Fthats-not-an-airport-its-a-farm-irish-minister-for-justice-is-not-happy-with-ios6s-apple-maps%2F http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http%3A...

_djo_ 14y ago

This was just a publicity measure for the guy's constituency. No pilot flying in VFR conditions is going to need to rely on a consumer map application running on a smartphone or tablet in the event of an emergency, because they're trained to know their alternate airports and to look out at the ground to identify suitable emergency landing areas. Similarly IFR pilots are required to file flight plans which often require explicit identification of alternate airports in the case of an emergency and they carry so much redundant equipment that a need to fall back on Apple Maps isn't a realistic scenario. If you want to highlight the real dangers of people relying on maps with faulty data there are far better examples. For instance in the city in which I live Google Maps for years showed a high-end hotel as being in a really, really bad part of town. Unsuspecting tourists could get themselves into a bad spot just following what their maps app was telling them. With people relying on the built-in maps apps on their phones to an ever-growing extent, Apple needs to put in a lot of effort to fix Apple Maps and they need to do it fast.

blaines 14y ago
It sounds like you're a US pilot, are the regulations similar internationally? Though I have heard of some pretty ridiculous landing decisions [1], I doubt this map error will increase Airfield's chances of someone landing there. So I totally agree, the situation described is rather preposterous. [1] http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_northern_az/other/dps-plane-makes-emergency-landing-on-arizona-highway http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_northern_az/other/dps-p...
- _djo_ 14y ago
  I have experience with the regulations in South Africa, but they are similar internationally as a result of co-operation through the ICAO and other agencies. Most of the world also follows the lead of the US FAA and European JAA in terms of civil aviation regulations. And yes, pilots have had to make some bizarre emergency landings over the years, but if you're in a situation where the engine quits and you have to get on the ground safely quick the last thing you'll be doing is looking down at your phone or tablet. So yep, preposterous.

ricardobeat 14y ago

Question: are maps in a TomTom GPS as broken as these?

kylec 14y ago

"Clearly the designation is not only wrong but is dangerously misleading in that it could result in a pilot, unfamiliar with the area, in an emergency situation and without other available information, attempting a landing." Maybe you shouldn't have named it "airfield", then?

edoloughlin 14y ago
> Maybe you shouldn't have named it "airfield", then? It's been there since the 1820s.
derleth 14y ago
I remember a story my mom tells about her, a Montanan until her adulthood, going to Chicago with her new husband (born and raised in Skokie) and asking him what kind of planes land in Wrigley Field. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrigley_Field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrigley_Field See, in Montana 'field' is always (or nearly always) short for 'airfield'; there's no way to tell how language will change over time and place.
mikeash 14y ago
I think you meant to say, maybe the aviation industry shouldn't have chosen a name that matched that of a farm.

Irishsteve 14y ago

This is a common problem in Ireland. The locals are constantly using google maps and now apple maps to land their planes.

lurkinggrue 14y ago

I'll just leave this here: http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/ http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/

joshu 14y ago

Can someone file a bug to rename the farm?

nekojima 14y ago

Hope no one using Apple's iOS6 maps tries to land a plane at the "Airport Strip" in Mississauga. Its a strip club.

zaphar 14y ago

I don't know how Apple could expect anything less than this response. They are coming from behind with the incumbent king of maps holding a lead they couldn't possibly hope to close in a first release. Possibly not in the first several releases. It's a hard problem. Even if you get a good source of data you still have to present it correctly to the user and the best way to fix issues is to get it into the hands of users. If you allow competing maps on the platform though the users aren't likely to use yours unless the data is at least as good and the experience is superior. I'm not sure this was a battle they should have picked.

lynchdt 14y ago

Just be happy you don't live in Ireland. [1] Our prime minister explaining what cloud computing is - "A wireless connection to shared storage" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzaQxLFl3rQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzaQxLFl3rQ [2] A senator explaining why the abundance of rain on the west coast of Ireland makes it particularly suitable as a base for, wait for it, _cloud_ technology - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056460271 https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056460271

davebees 14y ago
The second one was a hoax.