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I'd say the metric is simply "if it's suddenly louder than the content before, we have the users attention and eyeballs". > But the emotional response would be

I'd say the metric is simply "if it's suddenly louder than the content before, we have the users attention and eyeballs". > But the emotional response would be the opposite (getting annoyed instead of getting interested). I think for the company placing the ad it is a net negative In Advertising, "getting annoyed" is just a sub-metric of "getting remembered" ;) Frankly, if the volume is too high I think the annoyance would be mostly directed towards the entire service playing ads at all, not the maker of the individual ad.

bluefirebrand 1y ago
> In Advertising, "getting annoyed" is just a sub-metric of "getting remembered" ;) This really just tells me that either I'm an outlier (probably) or advertisers are morons If I remember something annoyed me with an ad, I will move heaven and earth to avoid their product I loathe advertising in general and the more intrusive it is the less I want your product. I keep a shit list of particularly irritating brands and go out of my way to avoid them
- dahart 1y ago
  Personally I feel like keeping a list of annoying ad brands and avoiding them would take up too much of my mental space, and it would lead me occasionally to bad purchasing decisions. Advertising is what it is, sometimes manipulative and sometimes very annoying, but basically all companies have to do it and they tend to do what works and behave similarly. As long as I have a choice, I’ll avoid advertising in general, regardless of whether it’s annoying. There is evidence that louder ads work: https://news.nd.edu/news/loud-and-clear-high-energy-ads-keep-viewers-tuned-in-study-shows/ https://news.nd.edu/news/loud-and-clear-high-energy-ads-keep... This feel unsurprising to me given the long known fact that people tend to rate audio quality based on volume. (It’s what the stereo sales scene in Fast Times at Ridgemont High was based on.)
  - bluefirebrand 1y ago
    > Advertising is what it is, sometimes manipulative and sometimes very annoying I think the difference between you and I is that I think it is always manipulative, and therefore is always very annoying There are no honest advertisers. Only scum.
    - dahart 1y ago
      I could agree that advertising is ‘always manipulative’ in the sense that, of course, it always seeks to sell you something and hope you’re swayed into buying. Most of it isn’t secretly or overtly manipulative, most of it is someone saying out loud “here’s my thing, buy it”. > There are no honest advertisers. Only scum. That’s a step too far, IMO, and before saying that you should at least reflect on how some advertising somewhere likely benefits you. There are many kinds of advertising. Advertising is not necessarily dishonest. If you work for a for-profit company, your company probably advertises. If you work for a non-profit company, your company probably advertises. If you work for a government agency, your org probably advertises. Advertising is any form of letting people know you or your services or goods exist. If you’re only talking about a subset of that, we should discuss how you’re defining advertising. We are chatting on the website of a venture capital company. This very forum you’re using is a subtle advertisement, and a significant portion of the chatter here is about how to start a company, including marketing and advertising. The type of ad/marketing that HN is is neither annoying nor manipulative. If you ever start your own company - and I recommend it - that’s when you learn the fact that advertising is both absolutely necessary and fairly difficult to do well. If you ever do anything in public, announcing it is advertising. The vast majority of companies advertise, as do many government and non-profit and public-interest organizations, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Advertising is a huge part of the business model that funds the arts in the US, and without it, we’d have a lot fewer plays, dancing, and music.
      - me-vs-cat 1y ago
        > Advertising is any form of letting people know you or your services or goods exist. If you’re only talking about a subset of that, we should discuss how you’re defining advertising. Sure, let's discuss. I cannot agree. Even if it isn't necessarily wrong, that's not strictly correct either. I'll call it a generalization well past the point of not being useful. Reading several dictionaries' definitions of "marketing" and "advertising", there is room between them, with advertising focusing on paid placement in every one. The American Marketing Association says: "Marketing is a business practice that involves identifying, predicting and meeting customer needs. Advertising is a business practice where a company pays to place its messaging or branding in a particular location." https://www.ama.org/marketing-vs-advertising/ https://www.ama.org/marketing-vs-advertising/ Yet "paid" isn't enough, and not only because of the common phrase "paid advertisement". A more accurate distinction might be made with intent. Perhaps: an advertisement is intended to change a viewer's trajectory to the advertiser's desired outcome when the viewer is not already heading in that direction. This is not completely satisfactory. I believe most people would find it a little off or burying the lede, though not necessarily wrong, to hear, "https://adobe.com/photoshop https://adobe.com/photoshop is advertising for Photoshop", in a way they wouldn't if "promotes" was used instead. I believe most would have a similar impression, "that's a rather weird way to phrase it", if you were to say a business is advertising in the phone book when they are only listed by name, address, and number -- the most basic listing.
- rickdeckard 1y ago
  Yeah, one would think that it works the same for everyone, but in fact it helps to be attention-grabbing, regardless of how. I have a related anecdote: Several years ago there was a huge level of competition among brands to position their Bluetooth speakers at retail stores. The stores had a table or a shelf with a large variety of different speakers, companies competed on price, quality and design, created expensive display racks with buttons to demonstrate the quality of different content, paid the stores fees to put up those display-racks, etc. Then, JBL decided to reduce the component costs for the speaker and put the money into colorful LEDs instead. Not as an end-user feature, but to grab the attention of the customer at the point-of-sale and stand out from all those other speakers. This completely disrupted the market, and within 2 months they were the number one brand in Bluetooth speakers in low/mid price-segments. Their Audio quality was lower compared to others in the same tier, but they were the most attention-grabbing speakers in every store, creating the most sales. Lesson for the entire industry: Cut the BOM for audio-components in the speakers and add LEDs!! Within a few months the entire Bluetooth-Speaker shelf of all retailers was full of speakers with flashing LEDs...

bluefirebrand 1y ago

> In Advertising, "getting annoyed" is just a sub-metric of "getting remembered" ;) This really just tells me that either I'm an outlier (probably) or advertisers are morons If I remember something annoyed me with an ad, I will move heaven and earth to avoid their product I loathe advertising in general and the more intrusive it is the less I want your product. I keep a shit list of particularly irritating brands and go out of my way to avoid them

dahart 1y ago
Personally I feel like keeping a list of annoying ad brands and avoiding them would take up too much of my mental space, and it would lead me occasionally to bad purchasing decisions. Advertising is what it is, sometimes manipulative and sometimes very annoying, but basically all companies have to do it and they tend to do what works and behave similarly. As long as I have a choice, I’ll avoid advertising in general, regardless of whether it’s annoying. There is evidence that louder ads work: https://news.nd.edu/news/loud-and-clear-high-energy-ads-keep-viewers-tuned-in-study-shows/ https://news.nd.edu/news/loud-and-clear-high-energy-ads-keep... This feel unsurprising to me given the long known fact that people tend to rate audio quality based on volume. (It’s what the stereo sales scene in Fast Times at Ridgemont High was based on.)
- bluefirebrand 1y ago
  > Advertising is what it is, sometimes manipulative and sometimes very annoying I think the difference between you and I is that I think it is always manipulative, and therefore is always very annoying There are no honest advertisers. Only scum.
  - dahart 1y ago
    I could agree that advertising is ‘always manipulative’ in the sense that, of course, it always seeks to sell you something and hope you’re swayed into buying. Most of it isn’t secretly or overtly manipulative, most of it is someone saying out loud “here’s my thing, buy it”. > There are no honest advertisers. Only scum. That’s a step too far, IMO, and before saying that you should at least reflect on how some advertising somewhere likely benefits you. There are many kinds of advertising. Advertising is not necessarily dishonest. If you work for a for-profit company, your company probably advertises. If you work for a non-profit company, your company probably advertises. If you work for a government agency, your org probably advertises. Advertising is any form of letting people know you or your services or goods exist. If you’re only talking about a subset of that, we should discuss how you’re defining advertising. We are chatting on the website of a venture capital company. This very forum you’re using is a subtle advertisement, and a significant portion of the chatter here is about how to start a company, including marketing and advertising. The type of ad/marketing that HN is is neither annoying nor manipulative. If you ever start your own company - and I recommend it - that’s when you learn the fact that advertising is both absolutely necessary and fairly difficult to do well. If you ever do anything in public, announcing it is advertising. The vast majority of companies advertise, as do many government and non-profit and public-interest organizations, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Advertising is a huge part of the business model that funds the arts in the US, and without it, we’d have a lot fewer plays, dancing, and music.
    - me-vs-cat 1y ago
      > Advertising is any form of letting people know you or your services or goods exist. If you’re only talking about a subset of that, we should discuss how you’re defining advertising. Sure, let's discuss. I cannot agree. Even if it isn't necessarily wrong, that's not strictly correct either. I'll call it a generalization well past the point of not being useful. Reading several dictionaries' definitions of "marketing" and "advertising", there is room between them, with advertising focusing on paid placement in every one. The American Marketing Association says: "Marketing is a business practice that involves identifying, predicting and meeting customer needs. Advertising is a business practice where a company pays to place its messaging or branding in a particular location." https://www.ama.org/marketing-vs-advertising/ https://www.ama.org/marketing-vs-advertising/ Yet "paid" isn't enough, and not only because of the common phrase "paid advertisement". A more accurate distinction might be made with intent. Perhaps: an advertisement is intended to change a viewer's trajectory to the advertiser's desired outcome when the viewer is not already heading in that direction. This is not completely satisfactory. I believe most people would find it a little off or burying the lede, though not necessarily wrong, to hear, "https://adobe.com/photoshop https://adobe.com/photoshop is advertising for Photoshop", in a way they wouldn't if "promotes" was used instead. I believe most would have a similar impression, "that's a rather weird way to phrase it", if you were to say a business is advertising in the phone book when they are only listed by name, address, and number -- the most basic listing.
rickdeckard 1y ago
Yeah, one would think that it works the same for everyone, but in fact it helps to be attention-grabbing, regardless of how. I have a related anecdote: Several years ago there was a huge level of competition among brands to position their Bluetooth speakers at retail stores. The stores had a table or a shelf with a large variety of different speakers, companies competed on price, quality and design, created expensive display racks with buttons to demonstrate the quality of different content, paid the stores fees to put up those display-racks, etc. Then, JBL decided to reduce the component costs for the speaker and put the money into colorful LEDs instead. Not as an end-user feature, but to grab the attention of the customer at the point-of-sale and stand out from all those other speakers. This completely disrupted the market, and within 2 months they were the number one brand in Bluetooth speakers in low/mid price-segments. Their Audio quality was lower compared to others in the same tier, but they were the most attention-grabbing speakers in every store, creating the most sales. Lesson for the entire industry: Cut the BOM for audio-components in the speakers and add LEDs!! Within a few months the entire Bluetooth-Speaker shelf of all retailers was full of speakers with flashing LEDs...