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"Links to" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. ProtonVPN is owned by Proton, which has no legal ownership ties with Tesonet. During Proton's expansion into

"Links to" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. ProtonVPN is owned by Proton, which has no legal ownership ties with Tesonet. During Proton's expansion into Eastern Europe, Tesonet initially assisted Proton with HR, payroll, and local regulation, so for a period of time, people working for Proton were employed by Tesonet, since Proton had no local subsidiary that could hire them. These were not "shared employees", they worked exclusively for Proton. In 2016, Proton created its own subsidiary, and these people are now employed by Proton. But for this historical reason, the ProtonVPN keystore on Android still lists Tesonet as the organization name, even though it is fully controlled by Proton. None of this is "debunking"; these are just the facts. You can make of them what you will, but you should be honest about what actually happened when you talk about it.

marbletiles 1y ago
> Tesonet initially assisted Proton with HR, payroll, and local regulation Entirely normal behaviour for a competitor to provide “HR assistance”.
- InsideOutSanta 1y ago
  I've been part of a European startup that added offices in Asia and the US, and we initially always partnered with local companies to do this. It's mutually beneficial. It allowed us to grow more quickly, and it allowed them to make relatively easy money (and, in our case, to dump some of their shittier employees on us without us knowing). In Proton's case, they already knew each other because Tesonet had previously offered to provide infrastructure during a DDoS attack against Proton. So maybe it's a conspiracy, or maybe it's just how things go. You can make up your own mind, but you should provide the facts when you make sinister insinuations.
  - danw1979 1y ago
    You know an awful lot of detail about the inner workings of two separate private companies though.
    - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
      LOL, now I'm part of the conspiracy. This is all public knowledge.
      - dsr_ 1y ago
        Then you could provide sources, please?
        InsideOutSanta 1y ago
        Here you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn... Here's the Handelsregisterauszug for Proton, which shows ownership: https://www.zefix.admin.ch/en/search/entity/list/firm/1189263 https://www.zefix.admin.ch/en/search/entity/list/firm/118926... Proton's peering relationships: https://bgp.tools/as/62371#asinfo https://bgp.tools/as/62371#asinfo I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for.
        steve1977 1y ago
        > Here's the Handelsregisterauszug for Proton, which shows ownership It doesn‘t. It’s a joint-stock corporation and while the shareholders are registered, the register is not public.
        InsideOutSanta 1y ago
        Proton discloses shareholder information here: https://proton.me/support/who-owns-protonmail https://proton.me/support/who-owns-protonmail But I guess they could be lying.
        ddtaylor 1y ago
        Them providing information isn't the same as publicly verifiable information.
    - 1y ago
rasengan 1y ago
> so for a period of time, people working for Proton were employed by Tesonet, since Proton had no local subsidiary that could hire them. These were not "shared employees", they worked exclusively for Proton. In 2016, Proton created its own subsidiary, and these people are now employed by Proton. But for this historical reason, the ProtonVPN keystore on Android still lists Tesonet as the organization name, even though it is fully controlled by Proton. So either: 1. Tesonet/Nord are loose with their private keys. 2. Proton isn’t being truthful. Anyone who understands crypto and key management knows “not your keys, not your _____.” If those staffers worked for Proton and not Nord, why did they have Nord’s key? This level of negligence with private key management really can’t be explained away.
- InsideOutSanta 1y ago
  Proton explains this here: https://redlib.catsarch.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://redlib.catsarch.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/prot... I suppose you're free not to believe them, but I'm unsure what exactly you believe is happening here and what exactly Proton is lying about. Tesonet secretly owns them and has been running a decades-long misinformation campaign to trick you into thinking they don't? To what end? It's not like Tesonet is some nefarious company we should all be afraid of. What would they gain from lying about this if it were true? And how can they make such an obvious mistake with their certs and then not make another one for the next decade? It's just not plausible. At some point, you've gotta use some common sense.
  - rasengan 1y ago
    My comment still applies regardless of any level of “explaining” [1]: 1. Either Nord/Teso are loose with keys (horrible) Or 2. Proton isn’t being truthful. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy or anything that it is Tesonet/Nord. Rather, the problem is you cannot trust someone with your privacy if they can’t even manage their own keys. [1] The explanation is poor at best and doesn’t explain why they worked so hard to try to delete all of the evidence (all of which was archived already). Additionally, nothing can explain away the lack of security with key management across these two orgs.
ddtaylor 1y ago
Did they sign things with the wrong keys?
ashirviskas 1y ago
> "Links to" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. How? it is obvious. > During Proton's expansion into Eastern Europe, Tesonet initially assisted Proton with HR, payroll, and local regulation, so for a period of time, people working for Proton were employed by Tesonet, since Proton had no local subsidiary that could hire them. These were not "shared employees", they worked exclusively for Proton. So basically same people managed teams, same people paid the employes, but my "Links to" is doing heavy lifting and in the previous sentence you say "ProtonVPN is owned by Proton, which has no legal ownership ties with Tesonet."? Who is doing the heavy lifting here? How much is Tesonet or Proton paying you to post in here?
- InsideOutSanta 1y ago
  > How much is Tesonet or Proton paying you to post in here? Sadly, they're not paying me anything, but I would suggest that any belief system in which information contradictory to your belief reinforces your belief is inherently problematic. So how much is Nord paying you to post here?

marbletiles 1y ago

> Tesonet initially assisted Proton with HR, payroll, and local regulation Entirely normal behaviour for a competitor to provide “HR assistance”.

InsideOutSanta 1y ago
I've been part of a European startup that added offices in Asia and the US, and we initially always partnered with local companies to do this. It's mutually beneficial. It allowed us to grow more quickly, and it allowed them to make relatively easy money (and, in our case, to dump some of their shittier employees on us without us knowing). In Proton's case, they already knew each other because Tesonet had previously offered to provide infrastructure during a DDoS attack against Proton. So maybe it's a conspiracy, or maybe it's just how things go. You can make up your own mind, but you should provide the facts when you make sinister insinuations.
- danw1979 1y ago
  You know an awful lot of detail about the inner workings of two separate private companies though.
  - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
    LOL, now I'm part of the conspiracy. This is all public knowledge.
    - dsr_ 1y ago
      Then you could provide sources, please?
      - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
        Here you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn... Here's the Handelsregisterauszug for Proton, which shows ownership: https://www.zefix.admin.ch/en/search/entity/list/firm/1189263 https://www.zefix.admin.ch/en/search/entity/list/firm/118926... Proton's peering relationships: https://bgp.tools/as/62371#asinfo https://bgp.tools/as/62371#asinfo I'm not sure what exactly you're looking for.
        steve1977 1y ago
        > Here's the Handelsregisterauszug for Proton, which shows ownership It doesn‘t. It’s a joint-stock corporation and while the shareholders are registered, the register is not public.
        InsideOutSanta 1y ago
        Proton discloses shareholder information here: https://proton.me/support/who-owns-protonmail https://proton.me/support/who-owns-protonmail But I guess they could be lying.
        ddtaylor 1y ago
        Them providing information isn't the same as publicly verifiable information.
  - 1y ago

rasengan 1y ago

> so for a period of time, people working for Proton were employed by Tesonet, since Proton had no local subsidiary that could hire them. These were not "shared employees", they worked exclusively for Proton. In 2016, Proton created its own subsidiary, and these people are now employed by Proton. But for this historical reason, the ProtonVPN keystore on Android still lists Tesonet as the organization name, even though it is fully controlled by Proton. So either: 1. Tesonet/Nord are loose with their private keys. 2. Proton isn’t being truthful. Anyone who understands crypto and key management knows “not your keys, not your _____.” If those staffers worked for Proton and not Nord, why did they have Nord’s key? This level of negligence with private key management really can’t be explained away.

InsideOutSanta 1y ago
Proton explains this here: https://redlib.catsarch.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://redlib.catsarch.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/prot... I suppose you're free not to believe them, but I'm unsure what exactly you believe is happening here and what exactly Proton is lying about. Tesonet secretly owns them and has been running a decades-long misinformation campaign to trick you into thinking they don't? To what end? It's not like Tesonet is some nefarious company we should all be afraid of. What would they gain from lying about this if it were true? And how can they make such an obvious mistake with their certs and then not make another one for the next decade? It's just not plausible. At some point, you've gotta use some common sense.
- rasengan 1y ago
  My comment still applies regardless of any level of “explaining” [1]: 1. Either Nord/Teso are loose with keys (horrible) Or 2. Proton isn’t being truthful. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy or anything that it is Tesonet/Nord. Rather, the problem is you cannot trust someone with your privacy if they can’t even manage their own keys. [1] The explanation is poor at best and doesn’t explain why they worked so hard to try to delete all of the evidence (all of which was archived already). Additionally, nothing can explain away the lack of security with key management across these two orgs.

ddtaylor 1y ago

Did they sign things with the wrong keys?

ashirviskas 1y ago

> "Links to" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. How? it is obvious. > During Proton's expansion into Eastern Europe, Tesonet initially assisted Proton with HR, payroll, and local regulation, so for a period of time, people working for Proton were employed by Tesonet, since Proton had no local subsidiary that could hire them. These were not "shared employees", they worked exclusively for Proton. So basically same people managed teams, same people paid the employes, but my "Links to" is doing heavy lifting and in the previous sentence you say "ProtonVPN is owned by Proton, which has no legal ownership ties with Tesonet."? Who is doing the heavy lifting here? How much is Tesonet or Proton paying you to post in here?

InsideOutSanta 1y ago
> How much is Tesonet or Proton paying you to post in here? Sadly, they're not paying me anything, but I would suggest that any belief system in which information contradictory to your belief reinforces your belief is inherently problematic. So how much is Nord paying you to post here?