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Ethics is applicable to many situations outside of life critical systems. Engineers take ethics very seriously because it is important, and I think it is impor

by bcrl 1y ago

Ethics is applicable to many situations outside of life critical systems. Engineers take ethics very seriously because it is important, and I think it is important for software developers as well. The first time I worked closely with a Professional Engineer on a project, it was eye opening as to how the concern of doing things the ethical way shaped the interaction... Everything from identifying potential business conflicts to ensuring data collection for inputs to the design process was done correctly and traceable. Corporations already push enough random HR requirements on tech employees. I can't see how having a semester or 2 of ethics courses is particularly onerous.

Zak 1y ago
I think including ethics in the curriculum at both the high school and university level is a great idea. I do not think requiring software developers to be licensed is a good idea at all. Safety-critical software projects should have a licensed engineer in a supervisory role.
- bcrl 1y ago
  Licensing takes many forms. Some are onerous, some are not. Working At Heights training takes 0.5-1 day of training every 3 years where I live, and it's mandated because it saves lives. Yes, it's a form of licensing, but it's an easy box to check because it's accessible. For example: running experiments on humans without their prior consent is considered unethical. However, large tech firms routinely run A / B tests on their users without providing Informed Consent. If software developers were trained like engineers, they would be ethically obligated to obtain Informed Consent prior to engaging in this kind of conduct. More importantly, when software developers realize they were being experimented upon (as happened in the Linux kernel community a while back), they were justifiably outraged. I know this isn't going to be a popular position to hold here, but there's a lot of harm being done by unethical practices that are currently widespread in big tech. Ephemeral ads that prey on the elderly would be considered Not Good by anyone that has seen a parent fall prey to them, yet there doesn't seem to be any concern whatsoever amongst the industry giants themselves to prevent this practice. So long as an ad brings in money, it's good to run seems to be the bar for advertisers at present, and I don't think that's good for society. When there are no ethical considerations given to the consequences of an action, unethical outcomes are inevitable. Fixing that starts with learning, which is something every great developer already does.
  - darkwater 1y ago
    > More importantly, when software developers realize they were being experimented upon (as happened in the Linux kernel community a while back), they were justifiably outraged. Wait, what happened here? Do you have more details?
    - eep_social 1y ago
      I didn’t read the whole thing but the intro seems even handed: https://hendrik-erz.de/post/lying-to-your-research-subjects-and-other-avoidable-ethical-pitfalls https://hendrik-erz.de/post/lying-to-your-research-subjects-...

by bcrl 1y ago

Zak 1y ago

I think including ethics in the curriculum at both the high school and university level is a great idea. I do not think requiring software developers to be licensed is a good idea at all. Safety-critical software projects should have a licensed engineer in a supervisory role.

bcrl 1y ago
Licensing takes many forms. Some are onerous, some are not. Working At Heights training takes 0.5-1 day of training every 3 years where I live, and it's mandated because it saves lives. Yes, it's a form of licensing, but it's an easy box to check because it's accessible. For example: running experiments on humans without their prior consent is considered unethical. However, large tech firms routinely run A / B tests on their users without providing Informed Consent. If software developers were trained like engineers, they would be ethically obligated to obtain Informed Consent prior to engaging in this kind of conduct. More importantly, when software developers realize they were being experimented upon (as happened in the Linux kernel community a while back), they were justifiably outraged. I know this isn't going to be a popular position to hold here, but there's a lot of harm being done by unethical practices that are currently widespread in big tech. Ephemeral ads that prey on the elderly would be considered Not Good by anyone that has seen a parent fall prey to them, yet there doesn't seem to be any concern whatsoever amongst the industry giants themselves to prevent this practice. So long as an ad brings in money, it's good to run seems to be the bar for advertisers at present, and I don't think that's good for society. When there are no ethical considerations given to the consequences of an action, unethical outcomes are inevitable. Fixing that starts with learning, which is something every great developer already does.
- darkwater 1y ago
  > More importantly, when software developers realize they were being experimented upon (as happened in the Linux kernel community a while back), they were justifiably outraged. Wait, what happened here? Do you have more details?
  - eep_social 1y ago
    I didn’t read the whole thing but the intro seems even handed: https://hendrik-erz.de/post/lying-to-your-research-subjects-and-other-avoidable-ethical-pitfalls https://hendrik-erz.de/post/lying-to-your-research-subjects-...