8 ms·

OpenStreetMap would have more accurate information about the locations of towns etc.

by rmc 14y ago

rburhum 14y ago
OSM doesn't do elevation. OSM doesn't do geocoding. OSM doesn't do routing. OSM doesn't do 3D. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest. I love OSM and I use it every day - but I know what it does, what it is good for and what it is not meant to do. Getting a list of towns for the entire world is easy. Solving the issues in the listed by the OP's tumbler requires data that OSM does not have.
- grey-area 14y ago
  OSM doesn't do 3D For most people the 3D is an amusing toy, not really useful. I'd be happy without it frankly. OSM doesn't do elevation See 3D above OSM doesn't do geocoding They have data for searching on street addresses and towns, and the data is available separately for postcodes etc (TomTom for example will have sold a solution for this to Apple, so they could have gone down that route). Google has this down, as you'd expect given their search expertise, and Apple would have done better to pay them at least for access to this service if nothing else as it's a complicated area. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest Yelp does, and that's who Apple are using for POIs One other point you didn't mention is that OSM doesn't do satellite data (their stuff is from Yahoo isn't it?), so that is a big area Apple would have had to sort out from another provider. While you're right that there is no one-stop shop for mapping services, and it's a really complex area (i.e. just choosing OSM would not solve all these probs, as you point out) I do think Apple have missed a chance to form a symbiotic relationship with OSM and enhance the quality of their maps with an open process rather than relying on the often out of date commercial data available and having to either fork the commercial data from this point on, or merge changes. Dealing with all these fixes will suck up a lot of time they could spend on improving the app itself.
  - rburhum 14y ago
    >For most people the 3D is an amusing toy, not really useful. I'd be happy without it frankly. The complaints about the "zigzagging" are about the 3D viewer, hence, my comment about 3D. >They have data for searching on street addresses and towns, and the data is available separately for postcodes etc (TomTom for example will have sold a solution for this to Apple, so they could have gone down that route). Google has this down, as you'd expect given their search expertise, and Apple would have done better to pay them at least for access to this service if nothing else as it's a complicated area. To have good geocoding, you need to have line segments with correct ranges and topologically accurate (for example splits in the right intersection taking in consideration overpass/underpass and grade changes - the 3D stuff you don't care about - along with no dangling edges). If you think OSM fits this bill in a world-wide dataset you are incorrect. Go ahead and download the entire dataset and see for yourself planet.openstreetmap.org. > Yelp does, and that's who Apple are using for POIs Actually, yelp only has coverage in the US and in the few outside countries they are in. Most of the world is not covered by Yelp's POIs, so sorry, but "Yelp" is not a worldwide solution for POIs - which is what Apple needs. > One other point you didn't mention is that OSM doesn't do satellite data (their stuff is from Yahoo isn't it?), so that is a big area Apple would have had to sort out from another provider. Yahoo, nor google, nor anybody else have their own satellite providers. That data usually comes from GeoEye, Digital Globe or any other satellite image provider. But yes, you are right, "OSM" has nothing to do with raster data as a whole (except for the elevation-derived contours they have in some places). Fixing OSM for anything else than displaying maps is a huge undertaking. Then, when you are done, you basically have to share the data with everybody else (including Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo, Mapquest etc etc). OSM is the GPL of databases, so for some use cases, it is not the best choice, for other ones, it is. The post I replied to claim "Apple just pick OSM", and my answer remains... it would not have solved any of the issues that people are complaining about.
    - Ziomislaw 14y ago
      I am offended. How could you mix up GPL with OSM? Is this some kind of a troll? If so it is very bad taste. OSM data is licensed under ODbL. It has nothing common with those "license terrorists".
  - parasubvert 14y ago
    The 3D flyover actually is hugely useful, more so than street view in my opinion, when trying to figure out one's way through the layout of streets in a metropolis.
- rmc 14y ago
  OSM doesn't do elevation True OSM doesn't have that, but there are some public domain datasets available for that, e.g. SRTM. OSM doesn't do geocoding. True. OSM is just a database, you'd have to make your own "address ↔ position" algorithm. Which is sorta hard. OSM doesn't do routing. OSM is just the database. You can (and people have) make a routing engine on top of that (e.g. http://map.project-osrm.org/ http://map.project-osrm.org/ http://maps.cloudmade.com/ http://maps.cloudmade.com/ ). You can do very specific types of routing (e.g. I figured out how to cross Dublin without passing a pub http://www.kindle-maps.com/blog/how-to-walk-across-dublin-without-passing-a-pub-full-publess-route-here.html http://www.kindle-maps.com/blog/how-to-walk-across-dublin-wi... ). OSM doesn't do 3D. True. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest. Yes and no. OSM is a database and has lots of Points of Interest, e.g. here's a Starbucks in London ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/node/488443269 http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/node/488443269 ), so it's trivial for someone making a map app to make a database of PoIs that an application can look up.
  - aw3c2 14y ago
    You can easily do geocoding with the OSM data. Nominatim is ready to deploy software that will let you do both normal and reverse geocoding. It is what openstreetmap.org uses for its search box.
    - rmc 14y ago
      And nominatim is open source ( https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim ), so if there's some silly embarassing thing that it gets wrong (like the address of your headquarters), then you can fix it yourself.

OpenStreetMap would have more accurate information about the locations of towns etc.

by rmc 14y ago

OpenStreetMap would have more accurate information about the locations of towns etc.

OSM doesn't do elevation. OSM doesn't do geocoding. OSM doesn't do routing. OSM doesn't do 3D. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest. I love OSM and I use it every day - but I know what it does, what it is good for and what it is not meant to do. Getting a list of towns for the entire world is easy. Solving the issues in the listed by the OP's tumbler requires data that OSM does not have.

grey-area 14y ago
OSM doesn't do 3D For most people the 3D is an amusing toy, not really useful. I'd be happy without it frankly. OSM doesn't do elevation See 3D above OSM doesn't do geocoding They have data for searching on street addresses and towns, and the data is available separately for postcodes etc (TomTom for example will have sold a solution for this to Apple, so they could have gone down that route). Google has this down, as you'd expect given their search expertise, and Apple would have done better to pay them at least for access to this service if nothing else as it's a complicated area. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest Yelp does, and that's who Apple are using for POIs One other point you didn't mention is that OSM doesn't do satellite data (their stuff is from Yahoo isn't it?), so that is a big area Apple would have had to sort out from another provider. While you're right that there is no one-stop shop for mapping services, and it's a really complex area (i.e. just choosing OSM would not solve all these probs, as you point out) I do think Apple have missed a chance to form a symbiotic relationship with OSM and enhance the quality of their maps with an open process rather than relying on the often out of date commercial data available and having to either fork the commercial data from this point on, or merge changes. Dealing with all these fixes will suck up a lot of time they could spend on improving the app itself.
- rburhum 14y ago
  >For most people the 3D is an amusing toy, not really useful. I'd be happy without it frankly. The complaints about the "zigzagging" are about the 3D viewer, hence, my comment about 3D. >They have data for searching on street addresses and towns, and the data is available separately for postcodes etc (TomTom for example will have sold a solution for this to Apple, so they could have gone down that route). Google has this down, as you'd expect given their search expertise, and Apple would have done better to pay them at least for access to this service if nothing else as it's a complicated area. To have good geocoding, you need to have line segments with correct ranges and topologically accurate (for example splits in the right intersection taking in consideration overpass/underpass and grade changes - the 3D stuff you don't care about - along with no dangling edges). If you think OSM fits this bill in a world-wide dataset you are incorrect. Go ahead and download the entire dataset and see for yourself planet.openstreetmap.org. > Yelp does, and that's who Apple are using for POIs Actually, yelp only has coverage in the US and in the few outside countries they are in. Most of the world is not covered by Yelp's POIs, so sorry, but "Yelp" is not a worldwide solution for POIs - which is what Apple needs. > One other point you didn't mention is that OSM doesn't do satellite data (their stuff is from Yahoo isn't it?), so that is a big area Apple would have had to sort out from another provider. Yahoo, nor google, nor anybody else have their own satellite providers. That data usually comes from GeoEye, Digital Globe or any other satellite image provider. But yes, you are right, "OSM" has nothing to do with raster data as a whole (except for the elevation-derived contours they have in some places). Fixing OSM for anything else than displaying maps is a huge undertaking. Then, when you are done, you basically have to share the data with everybody else (including Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo, Mapquest etc etc). OSM is the GPL of databases, so for some use cases, it is not the best choice, for other ones, it is. The post I replied to claim "Apple just pick OSM", and my answer remains... it would not have solved any of the issues that people are complaining about.
  - Ziomislaw 14y ago
    I am offended. How could you mix up GPL with OSM? Is this some kind of a troll? If so it is very bad taste. OSM data is licensed under ODbL. It has nothing common with those "license terrorists".
- parasubvert 14y ago
  The 3D flyover actually is hugely useful, more so than street view in my opinion, when trying to figure out one's way through the layout of streets in a metropolis.
rmc 14y ago
OSM doesn't do elevation True OSM doesn't have that, but there are some public domain datasets available for that, e.g. SRTM. OSM doesn't do geocoding. True. OSM is just a database, you'd have to make your own "address ↔ position" algorithm. Which is sorta hard. OSM doesn't do routing. OSM is just the database. You can (and people have) make a routing engine on top of that (e.g. http://map.project-osrm.org/ http://map.project-osrm.org/ http://maps.cloudmade.com/ http://maps.cloudmade.com/ ). You can do very specific types of routing (e.g. I figured out how to cross Dublin without passing a pub http://www.kindle-maps.com/blog/how-to-walk-across-dublin-without-passing-a-pub-full-publess-route-here.html http://www.kindle-maps.com/blog/how-to-walk-across-dublin-wi... ). OSM doesn't do 3D. True. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest. Yes and no. OSM is a database and has lots of Points of Interest, e.g. here's a Starbucks in London ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/node/488443269 http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/node/488443269 ), so it's trivial for someone making a map app to make a database of PoIs that an application can look up.
- aw3c2 14y ago
  You can easily do geocoding with the OSM data. Nominatim is ready to deploy software that will let you do both normal and reverse geocoding. It is what openstreetmap.org uses for its search box.
  - rmc 14y ago
    And nominatim is open source ( https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim ), so if there's some silly embarassing thing that it gets wrong (like the address of your headquarters), then you can fix it yourself.