5 ms·

Openstreetmap's doesnt address any of the OP's issues. Having built maps for the past 12 years, I know exactly what of each of those issues are about. The blurr

by rburhum 14y ago

Openstreetmap's doesnt address any of the OP's issues. Having built maps for the past 12 years, I know exactly what of each of those issues are about. The blurry images are underlying base layers that drew first and then probably the upper layer timed out when rendering the tile. The curves are caused by elevation measurements that are incorrect (measuring elevation from a satellite involves bouncing from the ground - when there are structures below, depending on the material, it may go through or bounce differently) or precision problems when generating the elevation grid (very common). The big white thing are clouds, when you buy highly expensive imagery you get them with louds (say 30% cloud blockage) and you need to comnine several images taken a different times, color correct them, and stitch them back to remove it (try to do this for one city and then think about doing it for the entire world). The routes that don't match the pins is weird, but it could be that the snapping point for the routing engine snapped to the wrong street edge (it seems very far though) or that the geocoder and the routing engine use different geocoders (that would be bad). Creating a good mapping product is difficult, but Apple will have something much better in one year.

grey-area 14y ago
The link is to a rolling blog of images, so you might not be looking at the same images I am. Here is an example of one: http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/31923886066/are-you-wondering-where-stratford-upon-avon http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/31923886066/are-yo... There are a lot of problems with road map and point data (at least in the UK) which are nothing to do with the points you've raised above, though those are fair criticisms too - however the satellite data is the least of their worries, I'm sure they could buy in a better cleaned up set of satelite tiles if they're willing to spend enough money, and people expect some problems with that, but basic search and mapping is not as complete as it should be.
smikhanov 14y ago
Apple will have something much better in one year It certainly will be better but I'm not holding my breath about Apple maps surpassing Google Maps any time soon. Google bought a Rasmussen brothers' company (what eventually became Google Maps) in 2004. That's eight years of product development, data collection, storage and refining -- all at Google's pace. Will Apple find some shortcut to compress this time in one-two year? Unlikely. It's very easy to underestimate the amount of pure, repetitive effort required to build products of this sort and how hard it is to "disrupt" the industries with players like Google.
- thereallurch 14y ago
  I'm sure google is sitting on a treasure chest of map related patents, too.
  - brudgers 14y ago
    With TerraServer, Microsoft got into online mapping before Google was even incorporated (and when putting a terabyte of data online was so far beyond the leading edge that it was a Microsoft research project). Their strategic partner Nokia has been in the mobile mapping space for some time as well. Given the relative sizes of patent portfolios prior to Google's acquisition of Motorola Mobility, I wouldn't bet on Google should the IP wars shift to mapping...of course I wouldn't bet on Apple either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TerraServer-USA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TerraServer-USA
- headShrinker 14y ago
  It wasn't until about 3 years ago that Google Maps became the polished app that it is now, ie: vector maps, 3d building maps, tilting, etc. (Google has been in the map business for 10 years now?) Apple has a lot of catching up to do but it's very good at trudging ahead regardless of customers complaints until the product is completely polished and competitive.
  - tayl0r 14y ago
    Are the features like vector maps, 3d buildings, and tilting only on Android? I've only used Google Maps on iOS.
    - headShrinker 14y ago
      Yeah. Maps for Android is really amazing, the single coolest app for Android. Even two years ago it was really very developed. I missed it.
- rburhum 14y ago
  I meant "much better" than what Apple already has. I don't think it will be easy for them to catch up (it would be absurd to say that they can have something better than Google Maps in such a short time). What bothers me a lot, is that most people blame the data errors to the algorithms or ability of the team to create good software. You can have the best coders in the world, and if they have data that is not good, they can only algorithmically clean it so much. Google has several vehicles that they drive around and collect all kinds of information themselves. Sure you can hire Navteq (or in Apple's case, TomTom aka TeleAtlas) to go around and do it for you. Guess what? When you license products from either of those companies that means you are relying on their editors. That means no fancy object recognition geotagged image that you can send to a support vector machine to flag an area as needed revision... the product you get from that licensing is the vector line with the attributes already attached to them. So that is what you work with. Google has an entire army in India, using Google-made custom editing tools that do these things. Unless Apple builds the same, they will always be behind. Can Apple do it? Sure! They have the cash and the talent. Will they? It is up to them to decide if investing 400 million into their mapping infrastructure is worth it. I think it is.
rmc 14y ago
OpenStreetMap would have more accurate information about the locations of towns etc.
- rburhum 14y ago
  OSM doesn't do elevation. OSM doesn't do geocoding. OSM doesn't do routing. OSM doesn't do 3D. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest. I love OSM and I use it every day - but I know what it does, what it is good for and what it is not meant to do. Getting a list of towns for the entire world is easy. Solving the issues in the listed by the OP's tumbler requires data that OSM does not have.
  - grey-area 14y ago
    OSM doesn't do 3D For most people the 3D is an amusing toy, not really useful. I'd be happy without it frankly. OSM doesn't do elevation See 3D above OSM doesn't do geocoding They have data for searching on street addresses and towns, and the data is available separately for postcodes etc (TomTom for example will have sold a solution for this to Apple, so they could have gone down that route). Google has this down, as you'd expect given their search expertise, and Apple would have done better to pay them at least for access to this service if nothing else as it's a complicated area. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest Yelp does, and that's who Apple are using for POIs One other point you didn't mention is that OSM doesn't do satellite data (their stuff is from Yahoo isn't it?), so that is a big area Apple would have had to sort out from another provider. While you're right that there is no one-stop shop for mapping services, and it's a really complex area (i.e. just choosing OSM would not solve all these probs, as you point out) I do think Apple have missed a chance to form a symbiotic relationship with OSM and enhance the quality of their maps with an open process rather than relying on the often out of date commercial data available and having to either fork the commercial data from this point on, or merge changes. Dealing with all these fixes will suck up a lot of time they could spend on improving the app itself.
    - rburhum 14y ago
      >For most people the 3D is an amusing toy, not really useful. I'd be happy without it frankly. The complaints about the "zigzagging" are about the 3D viewer, hence, my comment about 3D. >They have data for searching on street addresses and towns, and the data is available separately for postcodes etc (TomTom for example will have sold a solution for this to Apple, so they could have gone down that route). Google has this down, as you'd expect given their search expertise, and Apple would have done better to pay them at least for access to this service if nothing else as it's a complicated area. To have good geocoding, you need to have line segments with correct ranges and topologically accurate (for example splits in the right intersection taking in consideration overpass/underpass and grade changes - the 3D stuff you don't care about - along with no dangling edges). If you think OSM fits this bill in a world-wide dataset you are incorrect. Go ahead and download the entire dataset and see for yourself planet.openstreetmap.org. > Yelp does, and that's who Apple are using for POIs Actually, yelp only has coverage in the US and in the few outside countries they are in. Most of the world is not covered by Yelp's POIs, so sorry, but "Yelp" is not a worldwide solution for POIs - which is what Apple needs. > One other point you didn't mention is that OSM doesn't do satellite data (their stuff is from Yahoo isn't it?), so that is a big area Apple would have had to sort out from another provider. Yahoo, nor google, nor anybody else have their own satellite providers. That data usually comes from GeoEye, Digital Globe or any other satellite image provider. But yes, you are right, "OSM" has nothing to do with raster data as a whole (except for the elevation-derived contours they have in some places). Fixing OSM for anything else than displaying maps is a huge undertaking. Then, when you are done, you basically have to share the data with everybody else (including Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo, Mapquest etc etc). OSM is the GPL of databases, so for some use cases, it is not the best choice, for other ones, it is. The post I replied to claim "Apple just pick OSM", and my answer remains... it would not have solved any of the issues that people are complaining about.

by rburhum 14y ago

grey-area 14y ago

The link is to a rolling blog of images, so you might not be looking at the same images I am. Here is an example of one: http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/31923886066/are-you-wondering-where-stratford-upon-avon http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/31923886066/are-yo... There are a lot of problems with road map and point data (at least in the UK) which are nothing to do with the points you've raised above, though those are fair criticisms too - however the satellite data is the least of their worries, I'm sure they could buy in a better cleaned up set of satelite tiles if they're willing to spend enough money, and people expect some problems with that, but basic search and mapping is not as complete as it should be.

smikhanov 14y ago

Apple will have something much better in one year It certainly will be better but I'm not holding my breath about Apple maps surpassing Google Maps any time soon. Google bought a Rasmussen brothers' company (what eventually became Google Maps) in 2004. That's eight years of product development, data collection, storage and refining -- all at Google's pace. Will Apple find some shortcut to compress this time in one-two year? Unlikely. It's very easy to underestimate the amount of pure, repetitive effort required to build products of this sort and how hard it is to "disrupt" the industries with players like Google.

thereallurch 14y ago
I'm sure google is sitting on a treasure chest of map related patents, too.
- brudgers 14y ago
  With TerraServer, Microsoft got into online mapping before Google was even incorporated (and when putting a terabyte of data online was so far beyond the leading edge that it was a Microsoft research project). Their strategic partner Nokia has been in the mobile mapping space for some time as well. Given the relative sizes of patent portfolios prior to Google's acquisition of Motorola Mobility, I wouldn't bet on Google should the IP wars shift to mapping...of course I wouldn't bet on Apple either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TerraServer-USA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TerraServer-USA
headShrinker 14y ago
It wasn't until about 3 years ago that Google Maps became the polished app that it is now, ie: vector maps, 3d building maps, tilting, etc. (Google has been in the map business for 10 years now?) Apple has a lot of catching up to do but it's very good at trudging ahead regardless of customers complaints until the product is completely polished and competitive.
- tayl0r 14y ago
  Are the features like vector maps, 3d buildings, and tilting only on Android? I've only used Google Maps on iOS.
  - headShrinker 14y ago
    Yeah. Maps for Android is really amazing, the single coolest app for Android. Even two years ago it was really very developed. I missed it.
rburhum 14y ago
I meant "much better" than what Apple already has. I don't think it will be easy for them to catch up (it would be absurd to say that they can have something better than Google Maps in such a short time). What bothers me a lot, is that most people blame the data errors to the algorithms or ability of the team to create good software. You can have the best coders in the world, and if they have data that is not good, they can only algorithmically clean it so much. Google has several vehicles that they drive around and collect all kinds of information themselves. Sure you can hire Navteq (or in Apple's case, TomTom aka TeleAtlas) to go around and do it for you. Guess what? When you license products from either of those companies that means you are relying on their editors. That means no fancy object recognition geotagged image that you can send to a support vector machine to flag an area as needed revision... the product you get from that licensing is the vector line with the attributes already attached to them. So that is what you work with. Google has an entire army in India, using Google-made custom editing tools that do these things. Unless Apple builds the same, they will always be behind. Can Apple do it? Sure! They have the cash and the talent. Will they? It is up to them to decide if investing 400 million into their mapping infrastructure is worth it. I think it is.

rmc 14y ago

OpenStreetMap would have more accurate information about the locations of towns etc.

rburhum 14y ago
OSM doesn't do elevation. OSM doesn't do geocoding. OSM doesn't do routing. OSM doesn't do 3D. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest. I love OSM and I use it every day - but I know what it does, what it is good for and what it is not meant to do. Getting a list of towns for the entire world is easy. Solving the issues in the listed by the OP's tumbler requires data that OSM does not have.
- grey-area 14y ago
  OSM doesn't do 3D For most people the 3D is an amusing toy, not really useful. I'd be happy without it frankly. OSM doesn't do elevation See 3D above OSM doesn't do geocoding They have data for searching on street addresses and towns, and the data is available separately for postcodes etc (TomTom for example will have sold a solution for this to Apple, so they could have gone down that route). Google has this down, as you'd expect given their search expertise, and Apple would have done better to pay them at least for access to this service if nothing else as it's a complicated area. OSM doesn't have a cleaned up dataset of Points of Interest Yelp does, and that's who Apple are using for POIs One other point you didn't mention is that OSM doesn't do satellite data (their stuff is from Yahoo isn't it?), so that is a big area Apple would have had to sort out from another provider. While you're right that there is no one-stop shop for mapping services, and it's a really complex area (i.e. just choosing OSM would not solve all these probs, as you point out) I do think Apple have missed a chance to form a symbiotic relationship with OSM and enhance the quality of their maps with an open process rather than relying on the often out of date commercial data available and having to either fork the commercial data from this point on, or merge changes. Dealing with all these fixes will suck up a lot of time they could spend on improving the app itself.
  - rburhum 14y ago
    >For most people the 3D is an amusing toy, not really useful. I'd be happy without it frankly. The complaints about the "zigzagging" are about the 3D viewer, hence, my comment about 3D. >They have data for searching on street addresses and towns, and the data is available separately for postcodes etc (TomTom for example will have sold a solution for this to Apple, so they could have gone down that route). Google has this down, as you'd expect given their search expertise, and Apple would have done better to pay them at least for access to this service if nothing else as it's a complicated area. To have good geocoding, you need to have line segments with correct ranges and topologically accurate (for example splits in the right intersection taking in consideration overpass/underpass and grade changes - the 3D stuff you don't care about - along with no dangling edges). If you think OSM fits this bill in a world-wide dataset you are incorrect. Go ahead and download the entire dataset and see for yourself planet.openstreetmap.org. > Yelp does, and that's who Apple are using for POIs Actually, yelp only has coverage in the US and in the few outside countries they are in. Most of the world is not covered by Yelp's POIs, so sorry, but "Yelp" is not a worldwide solution for POIs - which is what Apple needs. > One other point you didn't mention is that OSM doesn't do satellite data (their stuff is from Yahoo isn't it?), so that is a big area Apple would have had to sort out from another provider. Yahoo, nor google, nor anybody else have their own satellite providers. That data usually comes from GeoEye, Digital Globe or any other satellite image provider. But yes, you are right, "OSM" has nothing to do with raster data as a whole (except for the elevation-derived contours they have in some places). Fixing OSM for anything else than displaying maps is a huge undertaking. Then, when you are done, you basically have to share the data with everybody else (including Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo, Mapquest etc etc). OSM is the GPL of databases, so for some use cases, it is not the best choice, for other ones, it is. The post I replied to claim "Apple just pick OSM", and my answer remains... it would not have solved any of the issues that people are complaining about.