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I'm really pleased to see this happening, but sad that it has come to this. What I'd really like to see is a whole bunch of people acting more professionally.

I'm really pleased to see this happening, but sad that it has come to this. What I'd really like to see is a whole bunch of people acting more professionally. Who you pray to, who you vote for, and who you sleep with are irrelevant to a professional context - and open source development is a professional context. So everyone needs to keep their professional and personal lives separate. I know that at best I would be disciplined, and at worst sacked if I made comments on the lines that some of the lead players in this sorry saga have made. And that's not pointing the finger at any one person.

hiimkeks 1y ago
If who you vote for will put me into a torture camp (or otherwise devalues my life or personhood), then I can't work with you, so no it is not irrelevant. (neither the "me" nor the "you" here refer to you or me personally ofc.)
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- pil0u 1y ago
  Agreed. Your example could sound like exaggerated, but silence is a form of opinion, of vote, of approval. Even in a professional context, because work is part of the society we live in. This whole "DHH situation" with Rails has put my mind in weird position. I admire the Rails creator, the business man, the speaker. I admire what he builds, how passionate he is about his work and open-source software. But I very strongly disagree with his vision of immigration, nationalism, parenting, well most of his vision of society. I was made aware about these opinions because people talked about it. Thanks to these people, I read and listen to him with more nuance, more critical thinking. That does not necessarily mean I would discard Rails, cancel the dude or write shit about him, but that surely means that I will be more careful about how the opinions of this 1 person could impact mine, the ecosystem I work with and the larger ecosystem I live in that is society.
  - kortilla 1y ago
    > but silence is a form of opinion, of vote, of approval. No it’s not. Indifference is not approval. Open source is global and someone in a university in Argentina contributing some features does not “approve” of anything because she didn’t participate in some bickering about US identity politics.
    - yxhuvud 1y ago
      This is a lot more than just US identity politics, as shown by the fully idiotic take on London he did.
    - zen928 1y ago
      Indifference is acceptance of the status quo, though, yeah? Whether that be on a conscious level of active avoidance or on a subconscious level of never mentally aligning it as a priority to build further understanding to form a thought-out opinion. There actually is a binary view on your stance against things when you see unfettered hate spread by others and choose (at some level) to not have an opinion. We've seen it before, we see it now, we'll see it again. Not everyone has the same privilege as you to remain head under sand until there's no commotion left to dodge.
      - kortilla 1y ago
        >Indifference is acceptance of the status quo, though, yeah? No, the world does not revolve around your pet problems. I do not know the regional politics of Bulgaria and if people started spewing Bulgarian politics in my open source community, my lack of participation is not acceptance of the status quo. I don’t even know what the status quo is and there are just two sides screeching at each other.
  - steve_gh 1y ago
    > but silence is a form of opinion, of vote, of approval. I disagree. We don't have to have an opinion on everything. And what worries me is those (both on the left and on the right) who think that silence is a form of opinion or approval. It's getting very close to "those who are not with us are against us". And that's a worldview I have very little time for.
- kortilla 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - mzajc 1y ago
    > If you actually cared about people devaluing your life you should also be outraged at any Mormons/Muslims/etc in power. Not everyone is a fundamentalist.
- fourseventy 1y ago
  Please stop with this type of ridiculous hyperbole.
  - wizzwizz4 1y ago
    People would be less inclined to say ridiculous things like this if they didn't keep happening.
    - typpilol 1y ago
      When was the last torture camp in the USA?
      - hiimkeks 1y ago
        Well the most famous one is conveniently not on US grounds, but operated by the US (Guantanamo). And then there is https://phr.org/our-work/resources/endless-nightmare-solitary-confinement-in-us-immigration-detention/ https://phr.org/our-work/resources/endless-nightmare-solitar....
- ishouldbework 1y ago
  "will put me into a torture camp" for sure, but "devalues my life or personhood" is pretty vague. So, for example, if I value guns and consider them necessary for my well being and personal safety, should I refuse to work with anyone who votes for increased gun control? This sounds like a recipe for very fragmented, unstable society.
  - bronson 1y ago
    If gun owners are being denied health care or being told who they can marry ("it's illegal to marry a fellow gun owner"), then yes, they'll probably want to avoid anyone wretched enough to advocate that. Short of that, it's NBD right? Not really comparable.
    - ishouldbework 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - marknutter 1y ago
      It's absolutely comparable. They both involve limiting rights and freedoms.
  - hiimkeks 1y ago
    That's a strawman, because that isn't about the value of my life or my personhood.
- shadowgovt 1y ago
  I think the salient meta-concept here is "Open source development is an inherently collaborative enterprise, and if people cannot collaborate, it stifles creation of open source projects and software." There may very well simply be political eras where the floor of trust isn't there for open source to spring forward by leaps and bounds.
wahnfrieden 1y ago
Not everyone involved in open source has a boss. I don't care what a boss would hypothetically do to me, so that's not helpful guidance.
nathanaldensr 1y ago
Completely agreed. Sorry, other folks, but you have no right to gatekeep my speech in any way in a professional context. Are you a family member? Then sure, we can have a discussion. Am I a member of your private club or otherwise dependent on your approval of my thoughts or beliefs? Then let's talk. Otherwise, leave me alone. You (the collective you) don't get to decide what I am and am not allowed to think and believe.
- giraffe_lady 1y ago
  Nobody is constraining your beliefs or expressions of them. People are exercising their own individual right not to associate with people who express certain beliefs.
  - marknutter 1y ago
    Ah. So just good old fashioned bigotry.
    - shadowgovt 1y ago
      Generally, bigotry is bias based on immutable traits. Beliefs are not immutable.
      - marknutter 1y ago
        [flagged]
        erxam 1y ago
        Oh, of course. To a right-winger, safety is bigotry and hatred is love. Of course, how else could it ever be. Do you really care about freedom if you don't let white nationalists abuse everyone and everything in their power all the time?
        marknutter 1y ago
tensor 1y ago
I've been in the "keep work and politics" separate camp most of my life. However, with the lines that have been crossed recently, where literal democracy and freedom are at stake, I don't think people have the luxury of keeping work and politics separate any longer. Fascism is bad and people cannot be silent.
- marknutter 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - jaredcwhite 1y ago
    If you say something like “if you invoke the word "fascism" in the context of today's politics, your opinion is immediately worthless”, your opinion is immediately worthless.
    - marknutter 1y ago
      Do you really not understand how unhinged you sound when you resort to such histrionics?
      - wizzwizz4 1y ago
        Those "histrionics" were your own words, slightly duplicated, with "say something like" added. While I don't disagree with this comment, I would recommend that you take the implied advice before expecting others to.
        marknutter 1y ago
        Dismissing someone's opinion because they compare those they don't agree with to literal fascists is not the same as dismissing someone's opinion because they do that. One leads to people being targeted for violence and potentially assassinated, the other calls out incitement to political violence.

hiimkeks 1y ago

If who you vote for will put me into a torture camp (or otherwise devalues my life or personhood), then I can't work with you, so no it is not irrelevant. (neither the "me" nor the "you" here refer to you or me personally ofc.)

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
pil0u 1y ago
Agreed. Your example could sound like exaggerated, but silence is a form of opinion, of vote, of approval. Even in a professional context, because work is part of the society we live in. This whole "DHH situation" with Rails has put my mind in weird position. I admire the Rails creator, the business man, the speaker. I admire what he builds, how passionate he is about his work and open-source software. But I very strongly disagree with his vision of immigration, nationalism, parenting, well most of his vision of society. I was made aware about these opinions because people talked about it. Thanks to these people, I read and listen to him with more nuance, more critical thinking. That does not necessarily mean I would discard Rails, cancel the dude or write shit about him, but that surely means that I will be more careful about how the opinions of this 1 person could impact mine, the ecosystem I work with and the larger ecosystem I live in that is society.
- kortilla 1y ago
  > but silence is a form of opinion, of vote, of approval. No it’s not. Indifference is not approval. Open source is global and someone in a university in Argentina contributing some features does not “approve” of anything because she didn’t participate in some bickering about US identity politics.
  - yxhuvud 1y ago
    This is a lot more than just US identity politics, as shown by the fully idiotic take on London he did.
  - zen928 1y ago
    Indifference is acceptance of the status quo, though, yeah? Whether that be on a conscious level of active avoidance or on a subconscious level of never mentally aligning it as a priority to build further understanding to form a thought-out opinion. There actually is a binary view on your stance against things when you see unfettered hate spread by others and choose (at some level) to not have an opinion. We've seen it before, we see it now, we'll see it again. Not everyone has the same privilege as you to remain head under sand until there's no commotion left to dodge.
    - kortilla 1y ago
      >Indifference is acceptance of the status quo, though, yeah? No, the world does not revolve around your pet problems. I do not know the regional politics of Bulgaria and if people started spewing Bulgarian politics in my open source community, my lack of participation is not acceptance of the status quo. I don’t even know what the status quo is and there are just two sides screeching at each other.
- steve_gh 1y ago
  > but silence is a form of opinion, of vote, of approval. I disagree. We don't have to have an opinion on everything. And what worries me is those (both on the left and on the right) who think that silence is a form of opinion or approval. It's getting very close to "those who are not with us are against us". And that's a worldview I have very little time for.
kortilla 1y ago
[flagged]
- mzajc 1y ago
  > If you actually cared about people devaluing your life you should also be outraged at any Mormons/Muslims/etc in power. Not everyone is a fundamentalist.
fourseventy 1y ago
Please stop with this type of ridiculous hyperbole.
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  People would be less inclined to say ridiculous things like this if they didn't keep happening.
  - typpilol 1y ago
    When was the last torture camp in the USA?
    - hiimkeks 1y ago
      Well the most famous one is conveniently not on US grounds, but operated by the US (Guantanamo). And then there is https://phr.org/our-work/resources/endless-nightmare-solitary-confinement-in-us-immigration-detention/ https://phr.org/our-work/resources/endless-nightmare-solitar....
ishouldbework 1y ago
"will put me into a torture camp" for sure, but "devalues my life or personhood" is pretty vague. So, for example, if I value guns and consider them necessary for my well being and personal safety, should I refuse to work with anyone who votes for increased gun control? This sounds like a recipe for very fragmented, unstable society.
- bronson 1y ago
  If gun owners are being denied health care or being told who they can marry ("it's illegal to marry a fellow gun owner"), then yes, they'll probably want to avoid anyone wretched enough to advocate that. Short of that, it's NBD right? Not really comparable.
  - ishouldbework 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - marknutter 1y ago
    It's absolutely comparable. They both involve limiting rights and freedoms.
- hiimkeks 1y ago
  That's a strawman, because that isn't about the value of my life or my personhood.
shadowgovt 1y ago
I think the salient meta-concept here is "Open source development is an inherently collaborative enterprise, and if people cannot collaborate, it stifles creation of open source projects and software." There may very well simply be political eras where the floor of trust isn't there for open source to spring forward by leaps and bounds.

wahnfrieden 1y ago

Not everyone involved in open source has a boss. I don't care what a boss would hypothetically do to me, so that's not helpful guidance.

nathanaldensr 1y ago

Completely agreed. Sorry, other folks, but you have no right to gatekeep my speech in any way in a professional context. Are you a family member? Then sure, we can have a discussion. Am I a member of your private club or otherwise dependent on your approval of my thoughts or beliefs? Then let's talk. Otherwise, leave me alone. You (the collective you) don't get to decide what I am and am not allowed to think and believe.

giraffe_lady 1y ago
Nobody is constraining your beliefs or expressions of them. People are exercising their own individual right not to associate with people who express certain beliefs.
- marknutter 1y ago
  Ah. So just good old fashioned bigotry.
  - shadowgovt 1y ago
    Generally, bigotry is bias based on immutable traits. Beliefs are not immutable.
    - marknutter 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - erxam 1y ago
        Oh, of course. To a right-winger, safety is bigotry and hatred is love. Of course, how else could it ever be. Do you really care about freedom if you don't let white nationalists abuse everyone and everything in their power all the time?
        marknutter 1y ago

tensor 1y ago

I've been in the "keep work and politics" separate camp most of my life. However, with the lines that have been crossed recently, where literal democracy and freedom are at stake, I don't think people have the luxury of keeping work and politics separate any longer. Fascism is bad and people cannot be silent.

marknutter 1y ago
[flagged]
- jaredcwhite 1y ago
  If you say something like “if you invoke the word "fascism" in the context of today's politics, your opinion is immediately worthless”, your opinion is immediately worthless.
  - marknutter 1y ago
    Do you really not understand how unhinged you sound when you resort to such histrionics?
    - wizzwizz4 1y ago
      Those "histrionics" were your own words, slightly duplicated, with "say something like" added. While I don't disagree with this comment, I would recommend that you take the implied advice before expecting others to.
      - marknutter 1y ago
        Dismissing someone's opinion because they compare those they don't agree with to literal fascists is not the same as dismissing someone's opinion because they do that. One leads to people being targeted for violence and potentially assassinated, the other calls out incitement to political violence.