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> You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that disconte

> You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that discontent. The trend in Europe started many decades ago. It is too convenient to blame Russia to avoid acknowledging reality. Russia does not create problems, it is an opportunistic actor that tries to use the existing problems and discontent to its advantage. Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist.

jacquesm 1y ago
> The trend in Europe started decades ago. In the intelligence community there is very little doubt that russia has been doing this for decades. Yes, there is a home grown component as well but it would not be nearly as large if not for all this meddling. > Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of a reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist. Yes.
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  That is plain delusion, really. Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. Again, Russia is only using them with very small effects. This will end badly because of this denial of reality and denial of people's voices, not because of Russia.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      I have flagged this comment because of the gratuitous insult and misrepresentation. Sad. "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes." "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.*"
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    > Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. This is incredibly short-sighted and is in fact exactly such a denial of reality that you accuse others of. The world is divided into poorer regions and wealthier regions, and regions that are peaceful and ones that are less peaceful. Then there is oppression based on race, creed, sexual preference and a whole raft of other things. As long as that is the case there will be people that want to move away from where they were born. You are claiming to speak for a group, but in fact you are just speaking for yourself, and poorly reasoned and supported at that.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      Odd how the replies to my comments seem to quickly swerve into ad hominem attacks and irrelevant points... Perhaps that's QED. The world is what it is. That has nothing to do with the immigration policies in Europe, which are chosen by the governments not imposed on them, and nothing to do with the growing range of issues in Europe. I am not claiming to speak for anyone, by the way. I only acknowledge the election results and trends across Europe and how those signs of public opinion are met. Have a nice one, guys.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        > The world is what it is. That has nothing to do with the immigration policies in Europe, which are chosen by the governments not imposed on them, and nothing to do with the growing range of issues in Europe. It does however, have everything to do with centuries of European imperialism. We shaped the world to be the way it is. It didn't happen by accident.
        jacquesm 1y ago
        It is interesting how few people are willing to admit that these are problems in large part of our own making. If there are two places that are both poor and one decides to plunder the other and becomes fabulously wealthy because they are able to turn what they plundered into wealth more effectively than the places that they plundered then it stands to reason that at some point the citizens of the places that were plundered would like to move their residence to the wealthier place. Long term sustainable policies that do not result in such an imbalance require a longer term view and possibly lower short term profits. In fact, the United States was on that path until Trump took over. Mexico was slowly getting wealthier and people were already moving back because it was a more viable alternative. Now of course all that progress has been destroyed but it was really working, and I'm pretty sure that it could have been accelerated.
saubeidl 1y ago
"People's concerns" is a way too broad term to pick for your personal agenda. I, too, am part of the "people". My concerns are that we are seeing xenophobia rise as a distraction from the issues caused by capitalist contradictions and that Russia is fueling that fire for its own motives. I, too, am unhappy with the current political parties, but for reasons opposite to yours. As long as the means of production are owned by the capitalist class, we will continue to suffer. My "people's concern" is not the same as yours. Please do not try to commandeer it.
- wolvesechoes 1y ago
  Ah, yes, true leftist belief that all evil arise from capitalism. The moment socialism arrives there won't be racism or xenophobia. It is as true as the belief that social dynamics can be explained without the notion of class and modes of production.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    > Ah, yes, true leftist belief that all evil arise from capitalism. Strawman detected. That's not what the GP wrote. > The moment socialism arrives there won't be racism or xenophobia. And that makes two. > It is as true as the belief that social dynamics can be explained without the notion of class and modes of production. Ok, I give up.
wolvesechoes 1y ago
You are right, but people would always prefer to put all blame on external factors (in this case Russia) than to admit that their precious liberal democracy and global order was just a temporal thing, as everything else in human history, and it ends because its own contradictions as well as incompetent and corrupted elites steering it this way.

jacquesm 1y ago

> The trend in Europe started decades ago. In the intelligence community there is very little doubt that russia has been doing this for decades. Yes, there is a home grown component as well but it would not be nearly as large if not for all this meddling. > Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of a reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist. Yes.

mytailorisrich 1y ago
That is plain delusion, really. Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. Again, Russia is only using them with very small effects. This will end badly because of this denial of reality and denial of people's voices, not because of Russia.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    I have flagged this comment because of the gratuitous insult and misrepresentation. Sad. "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes." "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.*"
- jacquesm 1y ago
  > Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. This is incredibly short-sighted and is in fact exactly such a denial of reality that you accuse others of. The world is divided into poorer regions and wealthier regions, and regions that are peaceful and ones that are less peaceful. Then there is oppression based on race, creed, sexual preference and a whole raft of other things. As long as that is the case there will be people that want to move away from where they were born. You are claiming to speak for a group, but in fact you are just speaking for yourself, and poorly reasoned and supported at that.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    Odd how the replies to my comments seem to quickly swerve into ad hominem attacks and irrelevant points... Perhaps that's QED. The world is what it is. That has nothing to do with the immigration policies in Europe, which are chosen by the governments not imposed on them, and nothing to do with the growing range of issues in Europe. I am not claiming to speak for anyone, by the way. I only acknowledge the election results and trends across Europe and how those signs of public opinion are met. Have a nice one, guys.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      > The world is what it is. That has nothing to do with the immigration policies in Europe, which are chosen by the governments not imposed on them, and nothing to do with the growing range of issues in Europe. It does however, have everything to do with centuries of European imperialism. We shaped the world to be the way it is. It didn't happen by accident.
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        It is interesting how few people are willing to admit that these are problems in large part of our own making. If there are two places that are both poor and one decides to plunder the other and becomes fabulously wealthy because they are able to turn what they plundered into wealth more effectively than the places that they plundered then it stands to reason that at some point the citizens of the places that were plundered would like to move their residence to the wealthier place. Long term sustainable policies that do not result in such an imbalance require a longer term view and possibly lower short term profits. In fact, the United States was on that path until Trump took over. Mexico was slowly getting wealthier and people were already moving back because it was a more viable alternative. Now of course all that progress has been destroyed but it was really working, and I'm pretty sure that it could have been accelerated.

saubeidl 1y ago

"People's concerns" is a way too broad term to pick for your personal agenda. I, too, am part of the "people". My concerns are that we are seeing xenophobia rise as a distraction from the issues caused by capitalist contradictions and that Russia is fueling that fire for its own motives. I, too, am unhappy with the current political parties, but for reasons opposite to yours. As long as the means of production are owned by the capitalist class, we will continue to suffer. My "people's concern" is not the same as yours. Please do not try to commandeer it.

wolvesechoes 1y ago
Ah, yes, true leftist belief that all evil arise from capitalism. The moment socialism arrives there won't be racism or xenophobia. It is as true as the belief that social dynamics can be explained without the notion of class and modes of production.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  > Ah, yes, true leftist belief that all evil arise from capitalism. Strawman detected. That's not what the GP wrote. > The moment socialism arrives there won't be racism or xenophobia. And that makes two. > It is as true as the belief that social dynamics can be explained without the notion of class and modes of production. Ok, I give up.

wolvesechoes 1y ago

You are right, but people would always prefer to put all blame on external factors (in this case Russia) than to admit that their precious liberal democracy and global order was just a temporal thing, as everything else in human history, and it ends because its own contradictions as well as incompetent and corrupted elites steering it this way.