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It's the political parties in power in Europe over the last 50-60 years that are to blame for Europe's current problems, not the parties that are rising in reac

It's the political parties in power in Europe over the last 50-60 years that are to blame for Europe's current problems, not the parties that are rising in reaction to that. Yet, we are told that the only option is more of the same, which in turns fuels the growth of discontent.

jacquesm 1y ago
You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that discontent. Between those two and outright xenophobia there is a lot of opportunity for mayhem. I can't wait until that asshole kicks the bucket and I hope - but I don't have a lot of evidence for that hope - that the next generation of russian leaders will realize that if they keep this up they will end up achieving exactly that which they are afraid of. By now it should be clear that the days of empire are over.
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  > You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that discontent. The trend in Europe started many decades ago. It is too convenient to blame Russia to avoid acknowledging reality. Russia does not create problems, it is an opportunistic actor that tries to use the existing problems and discontent to its advantage. Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    > The trend in Europe started decades ago. In the intelligence community there is very little doubt that russia has been doing this for decades. Yes, there is a home grown component as well but it would not be nearly as large if not for all this meddling. > Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of a reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist. Yes.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      That is plain delusion, really. Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. Again, Russia is only using them with very small effects. This will end badly because of this denial of reality and denial of people's voices, not because of Russia.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        [flagged]
        mytailorisrich 1y ago
        I have flagged this comment because of the gratuitous insult and misrepresentation. Sad. "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes." "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.*"
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        > Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. This is incredibly short-sighted and is in fact exactly such a denial of reality that you accuse others of. The world is divided into poorer regions and wealthier regions, and regions that are peaceful and ones that are less peaceful. Then there is oppression based on race, creed, sexual preference and a whole raft of other things. As long as that is the case there will be people that want to move away from where they were born. You are claiming to speak for a group, but in fact you are just speaking for yourself, and poorly reasoned and supported at that.
        mytailorisrich 1y ago
        Odd how the replies to my comments seem to quickly swerve into ad hominem attacks and irrelevant points... Perhaps that's QED. The world is what it is. That has nothing to do with the immigration policies in Europe, which are chosen by the governments not imposed on them, and nothing to do with the growing range of issues in Europe. I am not claiming to speak for anyone, by the way. I only acknowledge the election results and trends across Europe and how those signs of public opinion are met. Have a nice one, guys.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    "People's concerns" is a way too broad term to pick for your personal agenda. I, too, am part of the "people". My concerns are that we are seeing xenophobia rise as a distraction from the issues caused by capitalist contradictions and that Russia is fueling that fire for its own motives. I, too, am unhappy with the current political parties, but for reasons opposite to yours. As long as the means of production are owned by the capitalist class, we will continue to suffer. My "people's concern" is not the same as yours. Please do not try to commandeer it.
    - wolvesechoes 1y ago
      Ah, yes, true leftist belief that all evil arise from capitalism. The moment socialism arrives there won't be racism or xenophobia. It is as true as the belief that social dynamics can be explained without the notion of class and modes of production.
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        > Ah, yes, true leftist belief that all evil arise from capitalism. Strawman detected. That's not what the GP wrote. > The moment socialism arrives there won't be racism or xenophobia. And that makes two. > It is as true as the belief that social dynamics can be explained without the notion of class and modes of production. Ok, I give up.
  - wolvesechoes 1y ago
    You are right, but people would always prefer to put all blame on external factors (in this case Russia) than to admit that their precious liberal democracy and global order was just a temporal thing, as everything else in human history, and it ends because its own contradictions as well as incompetent and corrupted elites steering it this way.
- wolvesechoes 1y ago
  Why would next Russian leaders start to believe that suddenly countries stop having opposing interest and don't need to use variety of tools to secure them, including war and sowing discontent among the countries they consider their rivals? Much can be said, but not that they are so naive as your typical HN commenter.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    Because there is no upside for them. Nobody cares or wants to invade russia, that's mostly in their heads. But if they keep going like this at some point it might actually be on the table. There was a point in time where what you just wrote could have been said for Amsterdam and Utrecht, which were regularly at war. But cooperation and collaboration are a much better way to run the world. Russia should move out of 1905 and get to 2025 if they want to continue to be a factor in the long term.
    - wolvesechoes 1y ago
      Cooperation is better until it stops being better. You are taking last few decades, which were anomaly due to unprecedented situation of total global hegemony of US, and you extrapolate for the rest of future human history, whereas it dissolves right before your eyes. And invasion or occupation is hardly the only example of adversarial policy, even if most obvious.
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        > Cooperation is better until it stops being better. It was better for Russia than the present. > You are taking last few decades, which were anomaly due to unprecedented situation of total global hegemony of US, and you extrapolate for the rest of future human history, whereas it dissolves right before your eyes. The US has nothing to do with this. > And invasion or occupation is hardly the only example of adversarial policy, even if most obvious. Yes, you can make enemies out of thin air. But the facts are simple: Europe has tried to appease Russia by trading with them, in the end that trade balance was and is used to wage war. That's a dead end strategy. Russia can not survive by itself and needs trading partners more than it needs more territory. Putin and his band of mafiosi are robbing Russia blind and are the root cause of a lot of this, they will at some point be replaced and hopefully the new guard will be smarter than the old guard. And if not we'll deal with that when we get there. You live in Poland, but your position does not strike me as typically Polish. Poland has seen first hand what it was like to live as a Russian occupied country. The same goes for the Baltics, Romania and lots of other countries in the East. Between all of them there is a solid agreement that this will not happen again. They're more than happy to let Russia be Russia, but within its own borders. Just like it would be if your country bordered Somalia or Iran.

jacquesm 1y ago

You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that discontent. Between those two and outright xenophobia there is a lot of opportunity for mayhem. I can't wait until that asshole kicks the bucket and I hope - but I don't have a lot of evidence for that hope - that the next generation of russian leaders will realize that if they keep this up they will end up achieving exactly that which they are afraid of. By now it should be clear that the days of empire are over.

mytailorisrich 1y ago
> You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that discontent. The trend in Europe started many decades ago. It is too convenient to blame Russia to avoid acknowledging reality. Russia does not create problems, it is an opportunistic actor that tries to use the existing problems and discontent to its advantage. Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  > The trend in Europe started decades ago. In the intelligence community there is very little doubt that russia has been doing this for decades. Yes, there is a home grown component as well but it would not be nearly as large if not for all this meddling. > Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of a reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist. Yes.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    That is plain delusion, really. Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. Again, Russia is only using them with very small effects. This will end badly because of this denial of reality and denial of people's voices, not because of Russia.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - mytailorisrich 1y ago
        I have flagged this comment because of the gratuitous insult and misrepresentation. Sad. "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes." "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.*"
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      > Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. This is incredibly short-sighted and is in fact exactly such a denial of reality that you accuse others of. The world is divided into poorer regions and wealthier regions, and regions that are peaceful and ones that are less peaceful. Then there is oppression based on race, creed, sexual preference and a whole raft of other things. As long as that is the case there will be people that want to move away from where they were born. You are claiming to speak for a group, but in fact you are just speaking for yourself, and poorly reasoned and supported at that.
      - mytailorisrich 1y ago
        Odd how the replies to my comments seem to quickly swerve into ad hominem attacks and irrelevant points... Perhaps that's QED. The world is what it is. That has nothing to do with the immigration policies in Europe, which are chosen by the governments not imposed on them, and nothing to do with the growing range of issues in Europe. I am not claiming to speak for anyone, by the way. I only acknowledge the election results and trends across Europe and how those signs of public opinion are met. Have a nice one, guys.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  "People's concerns" is a way too broad term to pick for your personal agenda. I, too, am part of the "people". My concerns are that we are seeing xenophobia rise as a distraction from the issues caused by capitalist contradictions and that Russia is fueling that fire for its own motives. I, too, am unhappy with the current political parties, but for reasons opposite to yours. As long as the means of production are owned by the capitalist class, we will continue to suffer. My "people's concern" is not the same as yours. Please do not try to commandeer it.
  - wolvesechoes 1y ago
    Ah, yes, true leftist belief that all evil arise from capitalism. The moment socialism arrives there won't be racism or xenophobia. It is as true as the belief that social dynamics can be explained without the notion of class and modes of production.
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      > Ah, yes, true leftist belief that all evil arise from capitalism. Strawman detected. That's not what the GP wrote. > The moment socialism arrives there won't be racism or xenophobia. And that makes two. > It is as true as the belief that social dynamics can be explained without the notion of class and modes of production. Ok, I give up.
- wolvesechoes 1y ago
  You are right, but people would always prefer to put all blame on external factors (in this case Russia) than to admit that their precious liberal democracy and global order was just a temporal thing, as everything else in human history, and it ends because its own contradictions as well as incompetent and corrupted elites steering it this way.
wolvesechoes 1y ago
Why would next Russian leaders start to believe that suddenly countries stop having opposing interest and don't need to use variety of tools to secure them, including war and sowing discontent among the countries they consider their rivals? Much can be said, but not that they are so naive as your typical HN commenter.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  Because there is no upside for them. Nobody cares or wants to invade russia, that's mostly in their heads. But if they keep going like this at some point it might actually be on the table. There was a point in time where what you just wrote could have been said for Amsterdam and Utrecht, which were regularly at war. But cooperation and collaboration are a much better way to run the world. Russia should move out of 1905 and get to 2025 if they want to continue to be a factor in the long term.
  - wolvesechoes 1y ago
    Cooperation is better until it stops being better. You are taking last few decades, which were anomaly due to unprecedented situation of total global hegemony of US, and you extrapolate for the rest of future human history, whereas it dissolves right before your eyes. And invasion or occupation is hardly the only example of adversarial policy, even if most obvious.
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      > Cooperation is better until it stops being better. It was better for Russia than the present. > You are taking last few decades, which were anomaly due to unprecedented situation of total global hegemony of US, and you extrapolate for the rest of future human history, whereas it dissolves right before your eyes. The US has nothing to do with this. > And invasion or occupation is hardly the only example of adversarial policy, even if most obvious. Yes, you can make enemies out of thin air. But the facts are simple: Europe has tried to appease Russia by trading with them, in the end that trade balance was and is used to wage war. That's a dead end strategy. Russia can not survive by itself and needs trading partners more than it needs more territory. Putin and his band of mafiosi are robbing Russia blind and are the root cause of a lot of this, they will at some point be replaced and hopefully the new guard will be smarter than the old guard. And if not we'll deal with that when we get there. You live in Poland, but your position does not strike me as typically Polish. Poland has seen first hand what it was like to live as a Russian occupied country. The same goes for the Baltics, Romania and lots of other countries in the East. Between all of them there is a solid agreement that this will not happen again. They're more than happy to let Russia be Russia, but within its own borders. Just like it would be if your country bordered Somalia or Iran.