6 ms·

American democracy might not survive another year – is Europe ready for that?

48 points by saubeidl 1y ago

yawpitch 1y ago
American democracy is already dead… an electorate does not shoot itself in the head twice and survive.
- decremental 1y ago
  [dead]
oldpersonintx2 1y ago
[dead]
pjmlp 1y ago
Unfortunely too many European countries are following along voting into the same kind of local parties. Those of my generation and previous ones following WW II, just wasted all the efforts for a better society.
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  It's the political parties in power in Europe over the last 50-60 years that are to blame for Europe's current problems, not the parties that are rising in reaction to that. Yet, we are told that the only option is more of the same, which in turns fuels the growth of discontent.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that discontent. Between those two and outright xenophobia there is a lot of opportunity for mayhem. I can't wait until that asshole kicks the bucket and I hope - but I don't have a lot of evidence for that hope - that the next generation of russian leaders will realize that if they keep this up they will end up achieving exactly that which they are afraid of. By now it should be clear that the days of empire are over.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      > You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that discontent. The trend in Europe started many decades ago. It is too convenient to blame Russia to avoid acknowledging reality. Russia does not create problems, it is an opportunistic actor that tries to use the existing problems and discontent to its advantage. Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist.
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        > The trend in Europe started decades ago. In the intelligence community there is very little doubt that russia has been doing this for decades. Yes, there is a home grown component as well but it would not be nearly as large if not for all this meddling. > Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of a reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist. Yes.
        mytailorisrich 1y ago
        That is plain delusion, really. Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. Again, Russia is only using them with very small effects. This will end badly because of this denial of reality and denial of people's voices, not because of Russia.
        saubeidl 1y ago
        [flagged]
        mytailorisrich 1y ago
- jacquesm 1y ago
  The good thing is though that Europe is fragmented enough that it won't go to pieces all at once in all countries, which gives some chance to remedy. Hopefully we - NL - will be able to move on from Wilders and his fear based movement soon. Another big factor is how long putin will be in a position to try to influence Europe by shoving refugees by the trainload into the EU immigration system whilst at the same time funding the right wing and various secession movements. I suspect that once that regime collapses that there will be a lot of people that will be missing their paychecks.
- legacynl 1y ago
  Don't forget putin is actively pushing these parties in the US and Europe. It's not an organic backsliding of societies into fascism, but a concentrated effort
  - wolvesechoes 1y ago
    Russia involvement is one thing, but it would be delusional to believe without its tentacles everything would be fine.
  - crazybonkersai 1y ago
    Do you have any proof for that except the usual drivel of European politicians of blaming Putin for any domestic problems? The rise of the "brown wave" is natural considering politicians in power have been constantly ignoring domestic problems in favour of pursuing geopolitical agenda. If you want to see a concrete example of election interference, look no further at recent elections in Moldova, Romania or Georgia and lengths EU has gone in keeping pro Russian politicians to get elected.
  - clanky 1y ago
    It's actually the domestic ruling classes of these countries which are engineering the move to the right, as shown by Silicon Valley beginning to re-platform Trump even before the Butler assassination hoax gave them air cover to go all the way and also get their man JD Vance the VP nom.
- decremental 1y ago
  [dead]
lifestyleguru 1y ago
It's a tragic mistake believing that Europe is any superior ethically and politically. As long as yachts and mansions in Balearic, Canaries, and Polynesia are well supplied and serviced, Europe is content. The only difference is that they're not that much into golf.
Telaneo 1y ago
If the US democracy collapses to the point where there truly is no hope (think civil war or Trump declares himself king (or whatever other fancy word)), I'd imagine Europe will take that very seriously and push to get out of there and become independent in all the ways that matter that they aren't now. However, I have a hard time imagining that happening. As long as elections are still a thing over there, even if Trump gets a third term, that's still probably not enough hope lost to push Europe over the edge to actually take action rather than continuing to wait it out and slowly distancing themselves from the US rather than quickly.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- saubeidl 1y ago
  If it actually happens, it'll be too late. Europe needs to prepare for that eventuality in advance.
- lapcat 1y ago
  > As long as elections are still a thing over there, even if Trump gets a third term I think you misunderstand. The Presidency is term-limited by the Constitution. Trump cannot run for a third term. The only way he remains in power after his second term is if the Constitution is abolished, in which case "continuing to wait it out" is futile. It would be equivalent to this: > Trump declares himself king (or whatever other fancy word)
  - Telaneo 1y ago
    > The Presidency is term-limited by the Constitution. I have no faith Trump gives a shit about the constitution. He and his goons can amend and screw around till they find something that gives them what they want. So long as there's a somewhat legitimate election that says Trump's president, the fire burning under Europe's bottom isn't burning hot enough for them to move. Unless there's literally no election, not even the pretence of democracy, I can't imagine anyone doing anything much different from what they're doing now. If they were going to, they'd have already done it.

48 points by saubeidl 1y ago

yawpitch 1y ago

American democracy is already dead… an electorate does not shoot itself in the head twice and survive.

decremental 1y ago
[dead]

oldpersonintx2 1y ago

[dead]

pjmlp 1y ago

Unfortunely too many European countries are following along voting into the same kind of local parties. Those of my generation and previous ones following WW II, just wasted all the efforts for a better society.

mytailorisrich 1y ago
It's the political parties in power in Europe over the last 50-60 years that are to blame for Europe's current problems, not the parties that are rising in reaction to that. Yet, we are told that the only option is more of the same, which in turns fuels the growth of discontent.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that discontent. Between those two and outright xenophobia there is a lot of opportunity for mayhem. I can't wait until that asshole kicks the bucket and I hope - but I don't have a lot of evidence for that hope - that the next generation of russian leaders will realize that if they keep this up they will end up achieving exactly that which they are afraid of. By now it should be clear that the days of empire are over.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    > You are missing the long arm of russia that is funding discontent all over the EU as well as to help create the problems that are at the root of that discontent. The trend in Europe started many decades ago. It is too convenient to blame Russia to avoid acknowledging reality. Russia does not create problems, it is an opportunistic actor that tries to use the existing problems and discontent to its advantage. Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist.
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      > The trend in Europe started decades ago. In the intelligence community there is very little doubt that russia has been doing this for decades. Yes, there is a home grown component as well but it would not be nearly as large if not for all this meddling. > Immediately labelling discontent as "xenophobia" is exactly what I mentioned in my previous comments, a denial of a reality and of people's concerns. It shuts down debate and only fuels discontent. People are effectively told that they have no choice and if they don't like it they are wrong and racist. Yes.
      - mytailorisrich 1y ago
        That is plain delusion, really. Economic and, especially, immigration issues are fully home-made. Again, Russia is only using them with very small effects. This will end badly because of this denial of reality and denial of people's voices, not because of Russia.
        saubeidl 1y ago
        [flagged]
        mytailorisrich 1y ago
jacquesm 1y ago
The good thing is though that Europe is fragmented enough that it won't go to pieces all at once in all countries, which gives some chance to remedy. Hopefully we - NL - will be able to move on from Wilders and his fear based movement soon. Another big factor is how long putin will be in a position to try to influence Europe by shoving refugees by the trainload into the EU immigration system whilst at the same time funding the right wing and various secession movements. I suspect that once that regime collapses that there will be a lot of people that will be missing their paychecks.
legacynl 1y ago
Don't forget putin is actively pushing these parties in the US and Europe. It's not an organic backsliding of societies into fascism, but a concentrated effort
- wolvesechoes 1y ago
  Russia involvement is one thing, but it would be delusional to believe without its tentacles everything would be fine.
- crazybonkersai 1y ago
  Do you have any proof for that except the usual drivel of European politicians of blaming Putin for any domestic problems? The rise of the "brown wave" is natural considering politicians in power have been constantly ignoring domestic problems in favour of pursuing geopolitical agenda. If you want to see a concrete example of election interference, look no further at recent elections in Moldova, Romania or Georgia and lengths EU has gone in keeping pro Russian politicians to get elected.
- clanky 1y ago
  It's actually the domestic ruling classes of these countries which are engineering the move to the right, as shown by Silicon Valley beginning to re-platform Trump even before the Butler assassination hoax gave them air cover to go all the way and also get their man JD Vance the VP nom.
decremental 1y ago
[dead]

lifestyleguru 1y ago

It's a tragic mistake believing that Europe is any superior ethically and politically. As long as yachts and mansions in Balearic, Canaries, and Polynesia are well supplied and serviced, Europe is content. The only difference is that they're not that much into golf.

Telaneo 1y ago

If the US democracy collapses to the point where there truly is no hope (think civil war or Trump declares himself king (or whatever other fancy word)), I'd imagine Europe will take that very seriously and push to get out of there and become independent in all the ways that matter that they aren't now. However, I have a hard time imagining that happening. As long as elections are still a thing over there, even if Trump gets a third term, that's still probably not enough hope lost to push Europe over the edge to actually take action rather than continuing to wait it out and slowly distancing themselves from the US rather than quickly.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
saubeidl 1y ago
If it actually happens, it'll be too late. Europe needs to prepare for that eventuality in advance.
lapcat 1y ago
> As long as elections are still a thing over there, even if Trump gets a third term I think you misunderstand. The Presidency is term-limited by the Constitution. Trump cannot run for a third term. The only way he remains in power after his second term is if the Constitution is abolished, in which case "continuing to wait it out" is futile. It would be equivalent to this: > Trump declares himself king (or whatever other fancy word)
- Telaneo 1y ago
  > The Presidency is term-limited by the Constitution. I have no faith Trump gives a shit about the constitution. He and his goons can amend and screw around till they find something that gives them what they want. So long as there's a somewhat legitimate election that says Trump's president, the fire burning under Europe's bottom isn't burning hot enough for them to move. Unless there's literally no election, not even the pretence of democracy, I can't imagine anyone doing anything much different from what they're doing now. If they were going to, they'd have already done it.