3 ms·

Possibly one of the worst possible investment choices From a collective point of view when it comes to electricity. One has to question how this choice came to

by pyrale 1y ago

Possibly one of the worst possible investment choices From a collective point of view when it comes to electricity. One has to question how this choice came to make sense to the german public.

adrianN 1y ago
It costs the state nothing to remove regulations preventing the installations and people who buy one see ROI of 15-20%. It also helps the grid by moving production closer to consumption.
- pyrale 1y ago
  > It also helps the grid by moving production closer to consumption. On the side of the grid, balcony solar means grid maintenance is supported by less revenue (your utility bill pays for the grid, balcony solar expenses don't). On the side of the producer, it means manageable production means are only amortized when balcony solar isn't producing (this isn't a small factor in a grid where electricity costs frequently reach zero). That increases the cost of electricity when the sun doesn't shine. Another aspect of this is that These factors mean that balcony solar would be unprofitable if power was metered depending on real whole-system costs (e.g. market prices and/or a subscription for the grid). That it is profitable for some actors now just means that the cost system isn't aligned with the billing system. This isn't bad per se (people prefer to have predictable, stable energy costs), but can't be sustained in a system where this imbalance can be arbitraged.
  - adrianN 1y ago
    My bill includes a fixed cost part that is supposed to pay for grid maintenance iirc.
    - pyrale 1y ago
      Out of curiosity, what share of the bill is it on average?
woodpanel 1y ago
> One has to question how this choice came to make sense to the german public. Easy: The most expensive energy prices in the world. The infrastructure investments needed to handle renewables are massive and are effectively passed down the consumer, who to be fair is ideologically on board with this. thus the downvotes on your post (predictably since Berlin timezone coming live) and this balcony thingy as a crumbs-off-the-table for the non-roof-havers
Tepix 1y ago
Can you explain why it is a bad investment? These 800W of solar pay for themselves within 3 years usually.
- pyrale 1y ago
  They pay for themeslves when compared to your bill prices. They absolutely don't pay for themselves when compared with actual market prices for electricity generation. Your bill is priced that way so that you can have predictable price for what you consume. That means sometimes markets electricity at zero, but you'll pay the full contract price. Other times, electricity is _much_ more expensive than your contract, and, likewise, you'll pay a fixed price. That fixed price is not competitive with balcony solar because it pays for services that balcony solar doesn't provide. That means that on average, your solar panels produce electricity when electricity is cheap for your utility provider, and when they don't, electricity is on average (but not always) more expensive. The logical consequence of this is that your contract is going to become more expensive, because you use your solar when it would be profitable for your utility, and you draw from the grid when it's unprofitable to them. Another alternative would be the end of fixed cost contracts, where balcony solar users would have to pay market price + subscription for their electricity. If that was the case, balcony solar users would probably spare cents during sunny weekends, and get hammered during winter workdays when there is no wind. edit: just checked the data, in August, Germany's prices at noon hit 0€ 17 days. On the other hand, prices at 18h soared above 100€/MWh every single day, and above 150€ 10 days in the month. In Sepetember, prices at noon hit zero 14 days. Another (wind-related this time) example, market electricity prices this weekend were negative most of the time (with a tiny 4€ peak) for 40h straight.
  - ivanche 1y ago
    Is it even possible for a private person to pay market price instead of a fixed price?
    - pyrale 1y ago
      Market price + VAT + a subscription paying for the grid and utility's benefits, yes. I believe that already exists in Nordic countries, I had heard of it in Sweden ([1] says 10% of the population uses it) and Norway ([2] quotes 75% of the population). [1]: https://swedenherald.com/article/so-you-should-think-about-electricity-agreements https://swedenherald.com/article/so-you-should-think-about-e... [2]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666955223000357 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266695522...

by pyrale 1y ago

Possibly one of the worst possible investment choices From a collective point of view when it comes to electricity. One has to question how this choice came to make sense to the german public.

adrianN 1y ago

It costs the state nothing to remove regulations preventing the installations and people who buy one see ROI of 15-20%. It also helps the grid by moving production closer to consumption.

pyrale 1y ago
> It also helps the grid by moving production closer to consumption. On the side of the grid, balcony solar means grid maintenance is supported by less revenue (your utility bill pays for the grid, balcony solar expenses don't). On the side of the producer, it means manageable production means are only amortized when balcony solar isn't producing (this isn't a small factor in a grid where electricity costs frequently reach zero). That increases the cost of electricity when the sun doesn't shine. Another aspect of this is that These factors mean that balcony solar would be unprofitable if power was metered depending on real whole-system costs (e.g. market prices and/or a subscription for the grid). That it is profitable for some actors now just means that the cost system isn't aligned with the billing system. This isn't bad per se (people prefer to have predictable, stable energy costs), but can't be sustained in a system where this imbalance can be arbitraged.
- adrianN 1y ago
  My bill includes a fixed cost part that is supposed to pay for grid maintenance iirc.
  - pyrale 1y ago
    Out of curiosity, what share of the bill is it on average?

woodpanel 1y ago

> One has to question how this choice came to make sense to the german public. Easy: The most expensive energy prices in the world. The infrastructure investments needed to handle renewables are massive and are effectively passed down the consumer, who to be fair is ideologically on board with this. thus the downvotes on your post (predictably since Berlin timezone coming live) and this balcony thingy as a crumbs-off-the-table for the non-roof-havers

Tepix 1y ago

Can you explain why it is a bad investment? These 800W of solar pay for themselves within 3 years usually.

pyrale 1y ago
They pay for themeslves when compared to your bill prices. They absolutely don't pay for themselves when compared with actual market prices for electricity generation. Your bill is priced that way so that you can have predictable price for what you consume. That means sometimes markets electricity at zero, but you'll pay the full contract price. Other times, electricity is _much_ more expensive than your contract, and, likewise, you'll pay a fixed price. That fixed price is not competitive with balcony solar because it pays for services that balcony solar doesn't provide. That means that on average, your solar panels produce electricity when electricity is cheap for your utility provider, and when they don't, electricity is on average (but not always) more expensive. The logical consequence of this is that your contract is going to become more expensive, because you use your solar when it would be profitable for your utility, and you draw from the grid when it's unprofitable to them. Another alternative would be the end of fixed cost contracts, where balcony solar users would have to pay market price + subscription for their electricity. If that was the case, balcony solar users would probably spare cents during sunny weekends, and get hammered during winter workdays when there is no wind. edit: just checked the data, in August, Germany's prices at noon hit 0€ 17 days. On the other hand, prices at 18h soared above 100€/MWh every single day, and above 150€ 10 days in the month. In Sepetember, prices at noon hit zero 14 days. Another (wind-related this time) example, market electricity prices this weekend were negative most of the time (with a tiny 4€ peak) for 40h straight.
- ivanche 1y ago
  Is it even possible for a private person to pay market price instead of a fixed price?
  - pyrale 1y ago
    Market price + VAT + a subscription paying for the grid and utility's benefits, yes. I believe that already exists in Nordic countries, I had heard of it in Sweden ([1] says 10% of the population uses it) and Norway ([2] quotes 75% of the population). [1]: https://swedenherald.com/article/so-you-should-think-about-electricity-agreements https://swedenherald.com/article/so-you-should-think-about-e... [2]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666955223000357 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266695522...