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Room for new competitors then? Surely Nvidia/AMD/Intel are not the only graphics vendors? Or is the tech too hard to even enter the market?

by bblb 1y ago

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
swiftcoder 1y ago
There are a whole raft of other GPU companies out there (Broadcom, MediaTek, PowerVR, Samsung, Qualcomm, ...), but none of them interested in the classic PC gaming space. And I'm not sure that space has been economical for a long time. Integrated GPUs have more-or-less reached a point where they can handle PC games (albeit not at the latest-and-greatest resolutions/frame-rates/ray-tracing/etc), and the market for multi-thousand-dollar dedicated GPUs just isn't very big
- jacquesm 1y ago
  > the market for multi-thousand-dollar dedicated GPUs just isn't very big What market research underpins this?
  - swiftcoder 1y ago
    Steam hardware survey suggests <15% of gaming PCs are running a high-end GPU. I'm defining "high-end" as "outperforms a top tier integrated GPU", which makes it 3070/4070/5070 or above on the NVidia side of things. That's a rough upper bound of 20 million on the whole market, and NVidia + AMD already have it buttoned up - a newcomer can expect to attract a tiny fraction thereof But I think more importantly, you can see this in NVidia's focus. Most of their profits are not in the gaming space anymore.
  - Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
    The Steam Hardware/Software Survey [0] answers this. Look up the MSRPs of the most common GPUs. Very very few are over $1,000. If you want to interpret "multithousand" to be >= $2,000, then the answer becomes VERY small (less than 0.5%), as the highest MSRP gaming GPUs are the RTX 5090 and RTX 3090 Ti, both which technically have an MSRP of $1,999, that typically only applies to the "Founders Edition" releases done by NVIDIA. 3rd party AIBs (MSI, Gigabyte, Zotac, etc) typically charge a bit more. [0] https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...
StopDisinfo910 1y ago
Dedicated GPU are dead for general computing. The whole market converged on APU because they are simply more efficient. There is plenty of competition there: Qualcomm, Samsung, Apple, MediaTek and of course Intel and AMD, and things are moving fast. The best phone APUs nowadays are more powerful than my not so old MacBook Air M1.
- dijit 1y ago
  General computing has not required a dedicated GPU for nearly 20 years, I would argue that the continued perseverance of Windows hinges on a handful of productivity software and, for ordinary people, crucially, games. So judging a market so completely, based on "general" computing is too shallow. > The best phone APUs nowadays are more powerful than my not so old MacBook Air M1. Which is, itself, an APU. The question is, is it better than a 2020 era dGPU and CPU combo (at any thermal/power envelope). The answer is complicated unfortunately, but a 3090 (a 5 year old card) has 4x the memory bandwidth of an M4 Pro and also about 4x the FP32 performance. So on the high end, descrete graphics cards are still going to be king for gaming. (I know that a 3090 isn't common, but 5080s are more powerful than 3090s).
  - StopDisinfo910 1y ago
    > for ordinary people, crucially, games PC gaming is a niche which is incredibly small. Ordinary people don’t use games on their PC provided they have one in the first place. Most PCs nowadays are laptops and they are mostly bought by companies sometimes by people and mostly to do work. If you look at the respective market size, gaming is mostly done on smartphones and dedicated consoles and they all use APUs.
    - ruszki 1y ago
      Is there less people gaming on PC, than let’s say 20 years ago, or just the market became larger, and new people started to play with something else?
      - 1y ago

Room for new competitors then? Surely Nvidia/AMD/Intel are not the only graphics vendors? Or is the tech too hard to even enter the market?

by bblb 1y ago

Room for new competitors then? Surely Nvidia/AMD/Intel are not the only graphics vendors? Or is the tech too hard to even enter the market?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

swiftcoder 1y ago

There are a whole raft of other GPU companies out there (Broadcom, MediaTek, PowerVR, Samsung, Qualcomm, ...), but none of them interested in the classic PC gaming space. And I'm not sure that space has been economical for a long time. Integrated GPUs have more-or-less reached a point where they can handle PC games (albeit not at the latest-and-greatest resolutions/frame-rates/ray-tracing/etc), and the market for multi-thousand-dollar dedicated GPUs just isn't very big

jacquesm 1y ago
> the market for multi-thousand-dollar dedicated GPUs just isn't very big What market research underpins this?
- swiftcoder 1y ago
  Steam hardware survey suggests <15% of gaming PCs are running a high-end GPU. I'm defining "high-end" as "outperforms a top tier integrated GPU", which makes it 3070/4070/5070 or above on the NVidia side of things. That's a rough upper bound of 20 million on the whole market, and NVidia + AMD already have it buttoned up - a newcomer can expect to attract a tiny fraction thereof But I think more importantly, you can see this in NVidia's focus. Most of their profits are not in the gaming space anymore.
- Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
  The Steam Hardware/Software Survey [0] answers this. Look up the MSRPs of the most common GPUs. Very very few are over $1,000. If you want to interpret "multithousand" to be >= $2,000, then the answer becomes VERY small (less than 0.5%), as the highest MSRP gaming GPUs are the RTX 5090 and RTX 3090 Ti, both which technically have an MSRP of $1,999, that typically only applies to the "Founders Edition" releases done by NVIDIA. 3rd party AIBs (MSI, Gigabyte, Zotac, etc) typically charge a bit more. [0] https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

StopDisinfo910 1y ago

Dedicated GPU are dead for general computing. The whole market converged on APU because they are simply more efficient. There is plenty of competition there: Qualcomm, Samsung, Apple, MediaTek and of course Intel and AMD, and things are moving fast. The best phone APUs nowadays are more powerful than my not so old MacBook Air M1.

dijit 1y ago
General computing has not required a dedicated GPU for nearly 20 years, I would argue that the continued perseverance of Windows hinges on a handful of productivity software and, for ordinary people, crucially, games. So judging a market so completely, based on "general" computing is too shallow. > The best phone APUs nowadays are more powerful than my not so old MacBook Air M1. Which is, itself, an APU. The question is, is it better than a 2020 era dGPU and CPU combo (at any thermal/power envelope). The answer is complicated unfortunately, but a 3090 (a 5 year old card) has 4x the memory bandwidth of an M4 Pro and also about 4x the FP32 performance. So on the high end, descrete graphics cards are still going to be king for gaming. (I know that a 3090 isn't common, but 5080s are more powerful than 3090s).
- StopDisinfo910 1y ago
  > for ordinary people, crucially, games PC gaming is a niche which is incredibly small. Ordinary people don’t use games on their PC provided they have one in the first place. Most PCs nowadays are laptops and they are mostly bought by companies sometimes by people and mostly to do work. If you look at the respective market size, gaming is mostly done on smartphones and dedicated consoles and they all use APUs.
  - ruszki 1y ago
    Is there less people gaming on PC, than let’s say 20 years ago, or just the market became larger, and new people started to play with something else?
    - 1y ago