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> That is unnecessary, because Palestinians already have equal rights which are not legally alienable. israel is merely illegally violating them. Which rights

> That is unnecessary, because Palestinians already have equal rights which are not legally alienable. israel is merely illegally violating them. Which rights are you referring to? Do you think they all have a right to full Israeli citizenship? > It's also not necessary for equal rights to bring us to any sort of resolution. Equal rights are more important than israel's unequal, unilateral safety, and a country whose existence depends on the violation of others' rights, must find a new, legal way to exist instead. Equal rights come first, and only then can we even begin to discuss a resolution. We tried the other way around, and it has failed to produce a resolution after decades of war. If one knew with a high degree of certainty that giving full voting rights to all Palestinians would result in the elimination of the Jewish population from the land would you still be in favor of giving all Palestinians full voting rights? You seem to be advocating for giving full voting rights to a population which largely doesn't believe in equal rights. > This seems to be agreeing with me? Like yeah, israelis voted for terrorists, war criminals, criminals against humanity, and genociders. That is at least as bad as hamas. It's also kind of telling how you refer to a terrorist as an "extremist" when they're israeli. Why soften the language only for 1 ethnic group in the conflict while hardening it for another? If you're referring to people like Ben-Gvir, then I would agree(as did the Israeli courts and likely most Israelis) that he is a supporter of terrorism. At the same time there have been other Knesset members like Haneen Zoabi who have made statements effectively supporting Palestinian terrorism as well. I'm not sure if there have been war criminals and criminals against humanity elected, that's a much higher bar than merely supporting terrorism(which is something that unfortunately large percentages of Palestinian society supports). Since the claims of genocide against Israel are not supported by the evidence I probably would not agree there have been genociders elected. As I mentioned earlier the way Israeli elections work makes it much easier for extremists to get elected, and this plays out for both sides naturally. > There is no Palestinian rule. There is some level of Palestinian rule under the Oslo Accords, I agree it's not a full state but it's arguably not "no Palestinian rule" whatsoever. Hamas had effectively full control of Gaza's territory for many years as well. > They are ruled, dominated even, by israelis. They do not have freedom of choice, or freedom of trade, or freedom of speech, or freedom of press, or freedom of movement within their own land of Palestine, because israel denies them each and every one of those freedoms. Palestinians are frequently victims of israeli terrorist attacks in Palestine too. When the IDF shows up, they often participate in the terrorist attacks. israel does not even allow Palestinians to defend themselves from israeli terrorist attacks. That is not Palestinian rule. There is a military occupation with some level of rule delegated to Palestinian authorities. Palestinian leaders and society have in general not been very supportive of many of those freedoms you mention, especially freedom of speech and freedom of press in addition to other freedoms like freedom of religion(no Jews live in Gaza or West Bank areas A/B at all for example).

ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
> Which rights are you referring to? Do you think they all have a right to full Israeli citizenship? Whichever rights israelis have, Palestinians also have. Whichever rights israel has, Palestine also has. If israel claims a right to safety from Palestinian attacks, then Palestine has an exactly equal right to safety from israeli attacks. If israel has a right to control their borders, Palestine does too. If israel has a right to 100% control their own trade, then Palestine does, too. This isn't that complicated. > If one knew with a high degree of certainty that giving full voting rights to all Palestinians would result in the elimination of the Jewish population from the land... You have this backwards: Palestinians already have rights by virtue of human beings, just like israelis. Likewise, Palestine has rights by virtue of being a country, just like israel. What comes after those rights are respected may be complicated, but is not as important as equal rights. Equal rights is most important, and an oppressor like apartheid South Africa or apartheid israel doesn't get to deny anyone their rights out of fear, or for any other reason. > There is some level of Palestinian rule under the Oslo Accords There is no Palestinian rule. They are ruled, dominated even, by israelis. They do not have freedom of choice, or freedom of trade, or freedom of speech, or freedom of press, or freedom of movement within their own land of Palestine, because israel denies them each and every one of those freedoms. Palestinians are frequently victims of israeli terrorist attacks in Palestine too. When the IDF shows up, they often participate in the terrorist attacks. israel does not even allow Palestinians to defend themselves from israeli terrorist attacks. That is not Palestinian rule. > Palestinian leaders and society have in general not been very supportive of many of those freedoms you mention Surprise surprise, israel is even less supportive, and "they did it first" isn't an excuse to deny a person or country their rights. > I'm not sure if there have been war criminals and criminals against humanity elected >Since [I personally believe] the claims of genocide against Israel are not supported by the evidence... While you are no doubt a good person, reality does not depend on what you think or perceive. Luckily, the relevant authorities (international courts, scholarly institutions) seem pretty confident that israeli electees are war criminals, criminals against humanity, and genociders, so you don't need to be.
- jameshilliard 1y ago
  > Whichever rights israelis have, Palestinians also have. I mean Israelis have Israeli citizenship...not Palestinian citizenship, individuals that have different citizenship in general will have different rights. > Whichever rights israel has, Palestine also has. If they don't have the same citizenship then they wouldn't have the same rights because they would live under different governments. > If israel claims a right to safety from Palestinian attacks, then Palestine has an exactly equal right to safety from israeli attacks. If israel has a right to control their borders, Palestine does too. If israel has a right to 100% control their own trade, then Palestine does, too. This isn't that complicated. It's unclear what you mean by this in practice, I would agree that if there was a peace agreement in place then this would be ideal, but there may be practical issues. For countries bordering Israel like Jordan/Egypt which have made peace agreements this is effectively the case so I don't see any reasons Israel would reject this outright. Keep in mind that since there is no peace agreement with Palestine creating established borders something like this isn't currently feasible. > There is no Palestinian rule. They are ruled, dominated even, by israelis. You're making it as if it's all or nothing, when in reality there's a lot more nuance here. > They do not have freedom of choice, or freedom of trade, or freedom of speech, or freedom of press, or freedom of movement within their own land of Palestine, because israel denies them each and every one of those freedoms. Their own leaders often deny them those freedoms, both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. They also don't have clearly defined borders in general which is a big part of the problem(i.e. the lack of a peace agreement creating mutually recognized borders). > Palestinians are frequently victims of israeli terrorist attacks in Palestine too. When the IDF shows up, they often participate in the terrorist attacks. israel does not even allow Palestinians to defend themselves from israeli terrorist attacks. That is not Palestinian rule. There are levels of rule below that of having a fully independent state. > Surprise surprise, israel is even less supportive, and "they did it first" isn't an excuse to deny a person or country their rights. Palestinians that are Israeli citizens have effectively all those rights. Israel doesn't recognize Palestine as a state due to a lack of a peace agreement, an actual peace agreement establishing a Palestinian state must be negotiated, unilateral disengagement(like Israel tried with Gaza in the past) does not work, likewise unilateral recognition of a Palestinian state will also be unlikely to work, both sides must agree on terms to end the conflict. > Luckily, the relevant authorities (international courts, scholarly institutions) seem pretty confident that israeli electees are war criminals, criminals against humanity, and genociders, so you don't need to be. Unfortunately many of these groups(UN and UN affiliated organizations especially) have a major credibility problem, from their outright lies[0][1], to poorly supported reports which cherry-pick data to create a false narrative[2] one certainly can't blindly trust the UN to provide accurate information due to their well documented history of extreme bias against Israel[3]. [0] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-one-un-leaders-mistaken-timeline-caused-confusion-about-gaza-childrens-starvation-risk https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-one-un-leaders-mistak... [1] https://unwatch.org/francesca-albaneses-made-up-math-and-false-facts/ https://unwatch.org/francesca-albaneses-made-up-math-and-fal... [2] https://govextra.gov.il/media/orumgksl/politics-disguised-as-science_systematic-distortions-in-the-ipcs-gaza-report-of-august-2025.pdf https://govextra.gov.il/media/orumgksl/politics-disguised-as... [3] https://unwatch.org/2024-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-rest-of-the-world/ https://unwatch.org/2024-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-rest-...

ImPostingOnHN 1y ago

> Which rights are you referring to? Do you think they all have a right to full Israeli citizenship? Whichever rights israelis have, Palestinians also have. Whichever rights israel has, Palestine also has. If israel claims a right to safety from Palestinian attacks, then Palestine has an exactly equal right to safety from israeli attacks. If israel has a right to control their borders, Palestine does too. If israel has a right to 100% control their own trade, then Palestine does, too. This isn't that complicated. > If one knew with a high degree of certainty that giving full voting rights to all Palestinians would result in the elimination of the Jewish population from the land... You have this backwards: Palestinians already have rights by virtue of human beings, just like israelis. Likewise, Palestine has rights by virtue of being a country, just like israel. What comes after those rights are respected may be complicated, but is not as important as equal rights. Equal rights is most important, and an oppressor like apartheid South Africa or apartheid israel doesn't get to deny anyone their rights out of fear, or for any other reason. > There is some level of Palestinian rule under the Oslo Accords There is no Palestinian rule. They are ruled, dominated even, by israelis. They do not have freedom of choice, or freedom of trade, or freedom of speech, or freedom of press, or freedom of movement within their own land of Palestine, because israel denies them each and every one of those freedoms. Palestinians are frequently victims of israeli terrorist attacks in Palestine too. When the IDF shows up, they often participate in the terrorist attacks. israel does not even allow Palestinians to defend themselves from israeli terrorist attacks. That is not Palestinian rule. > Palestinian leaders and society have in general not been very supportive of many of those freedoms you mention Surprise surprise, israel is even less supportive, and "they did it first" isn't an excuse to deny a person or country their rights. > I'm not sure if there have been war criminals and criminals against humanity elected >Since [I personally believe] the claims of genocide against Israel are not supported by the evidence... While you are no doubt a good person, reality does not depend on what you think or perceive. Luckily, the relevant authorities (international courts, scholarly institutions) seem pretty confident that israeli electees are war criminals, criminals against humanity, and genociders, so you don't need to be.

jameshilliard 1y ago
> Whichever rights israelis have, Palestinians also have. I mean Israelis have Israeli citizenship...not Palestinian citizenship, individuals that have different citizenship in general will have different rights. > Whichever rights israel has, Palestine also has. If they don't have the same citizenship then they wouldn't have the same rights because they would live under different governments. > If israel claims a right to safety from Palestinian attacks, then Palestine has an exactly equal right to safety from israeli attacks. If israel has a right to control their borders, Palestine does too. If israel has a right to 100% control their own trade, then Palestine does, too. This isn't that complicated. It's unclear what you mean by this in practice, I would agree that if there was a peace agreement in place then this would be ideal, but there may be practical issues. For countries bordering Israel like Jordan/Egypt which have made peace agreements this is effectively the case so I don't see any reasons Israel would reject this outright. Keep in mind that since there is no peace agreement with Palestine creating established borders something like this isn't currently feasible. > There is no Palestinian rule. They are ruled, dominated even, by israelis. You're making it as if it's all or nothing, when in reality there's a lot more nuance here. > They do not have freedom of choice, or freedom of trade, or freedom of speech, or freedom of press, or freedom of movement within their own land of Palestine, because israel denies them each and every one of those freedoms. Their own leaders often deny them those freedoms, both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. They also don't have clearly defined borders in general which is a big part of the problem(i.e. the lack of a peace agreement creating mutually recognized borders). > Palestinians are frequently victims of israeli terrorist attacks in Palestine too. When the IDF shows up, they often participate in the terrorist attacks. israel does not even allow Palestinians to defend themselves from israeli terrorist attacks. That is not Palestinian rule. There are levels of rule below that of having a fully independent state. > Surprise surprise, israel is even less supportive, and "they did it first" isn't an excuse to deny a person or country their rights. Palestinians that are Israeli citizens have effectively all those rights. Israel doesn't recognize Palestine as a state due to a lack of a peace agreement, an actual peace agreement establishing a Palestinian state must be negotiated, unilateral disengagement(like Israel tried with Gaza in the past) does not work, likewise unilateral recognition of a Palestinian state will also be unlikely to work, both sides must agree on terms to end the conflict. > Luckily, the relevant authorities (international courts, scholarly institutions) seem pretty confident that israeli electees are war criminals, criminals against humanity, and genociders, so you don't need to be. Unfortunately many of these groups(UN and UN affiliated organizations especially) have a major credibility problem, from their outright lies[0][1], to poorly supported reports which cherry-pick data to create a false narrative[2] one certainly can't blindly trust the UN to provide accurate information due to their well documented history of extreme bias against Israel[3]. [0] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-one-un-leaders-mistaken-timeline-caused-confusion-about-gaza-childrens-starvation-risk https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-one-un-leaders-mistak... [1] https://unwatch.org/francesca-albaneses-made-up-math-and-false-facts/ https://unwatch.org/francesca-albaneses-made-up-math-and-fal... [2] https://govextra.gov.il/media/orumgksl/politics-disguised-as-science_systematic-distortions-in-the-ipcs-gaza-report-of-august-2025.pdf https://govextra.gov.il/media/orumgksl/politics-disguised-as... [3] https://unwatch.org/2024-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-rest-of-the-world/ https://unwatch.org/2024-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-rest-...