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That’s the law, yeah - and if the goods are faulty it’s actually up to two years. But this is Amazon - they don’t need to follow consumer protection laws - I t

That’s the law, yeah - and if the goods are faulty it’s actually up to two years. But this is Amazon - they don’t need to follow consumer protection laws - I think their specific get out is that they’re Amazon Spain, and I’m having stuff shipped to Portugal, and Spanish consumer protection regs (which implement the EU regs) only protect consumers in Spain. That was meta’s get-out, too.

thaumasiotes 1y ago
> But this is Amazon - they don’t need to follow consumer protection laws No one needs to follow consumer protection laws if you don't sue to make them.
- madaxe_again 1y ago
  Yeah, I’m not spending hundreds of thousands of euro on legal fees to fight a trillion dollar company over a €300 piece of crud. That’s part of their calculus, too.
  - b112 1y ago
    You don't have small claims court? Here in Canada, it's $150 to register, you fill out the form yourself, no lawyers are allowed, and you argue your case in front of a judge. (A company can have someone represent them, but if it's a lawyer, they must also have a rep. from the company there. and there can be no legalise, and the judge must explain anything to you if you ask) There is no forced discoverability. EG, the other side cannot ask for all sorts of documents. You just include your evidence in the filing. There is no ability for the company you sue, to compel costs if you lose. For $150 you get a lot of joy out of hassling a company behaving like this. And amusingly, they still consult lawyers, and spend on a lot on lawyers. They can't be used in court, but they of course as a company consult legal experts. I napkin mathed it, the one time I sued a company. I figured it cost them $25,000 to defend when I spent $150. If even a small percentage of people take them to task for breaking the law, they'll turn around quick. Always use your enemies strengths as a weakness against them. You should look at the process, but view if from the perspective of a hobby.
    - madaxe_again 1y ago
      They do, but it’s only available to Portuguese citizens - I am a legally resident alien, but am excluded from that system, as it requires a citizen card to start a claim.
      - blibble 1y ago
        so anyone can just rip you off for any contract and there's nothing you can do about it? doesn't seem likely
      - Tadpole9181 1y ago
        Julgados de Paz is available to non-citizens, what are you talking about? So is contacting the livro de réclamations and making a chargeback with your card provider. How strange to try to claim the legal system has no reconciliation process for tourists or EU passer-bys. You're allowed to say you just couldn't be bothered to go through the trouble.
        madaxe_again 1y ago
        Go look at the website - you have to use authenticao.gov, which requires a digital mobile key, which requires a citizen card, which I cannot have unless I am a citizen. The offline process requires me to travel 200km each way to spend a day queuing. Amazon Spain are Spanish, and are not subject to the Portuguese livro de reclamações. As to making a chargeback - I like having a bank account, and being able to pay for things online - any time you do one you take a risk your bank will decide to throw freezes and KYC at you until you give up.
        b112 1y ago
        Saying "It's not available to not citizens" is wildly and massively different than "It's more work for non-citizens". It's literally a lie and dishonest. And given you've already said things that are not true, I'm highly skeptical that there are not other means to handle this. I bet there are ways to access authenticao.gov without being a citizen. I bet there are ways that you don't have to go 200km. You can probably send the forms by snail-mail, by post or courier. I bet you're just leaving things out again, or haven't researched properly, as you've shown this to be the case with prior comments. In terms of what Amazon is subject to, you can get a court judgement in one jurisdiction, and have it enforced in another. You're in the EU too, and I would be astonished to discover this isn't super-easy there. And legislation likely enhances cross-border cases like this. And if companies ship into another country, they can be blocked until recourse happens. Point is, you're just (again) saying "Oh well!" without really knowing. You're just saying that's the case, because you're presuming that's the case. You don't know. you just say it is so. Chargebacks are a part of online life. They are common. I've never, ever heard of a bank ever being hostile over them. The very premise is weird and absurd. It's just a part of banking, nothing unusual, nothing surprising, and a process we all have to go through from time to time.
  - necovek 1y ago
    I would hope that consumer protection organizations can help you with that without having to engage lawyers: similarly, Amazon is not interested in long running legal battles if they see you are serious.
  - Symbiote 1y ago
    Why not make a chargeback on the card you used to pay?
OJFord 1y ago
In my experience in the UK, Amazon is better than consumer protection laws, and miles better than other vendors. They won't question or require lots of information etc. to support things in however many years of warranty, or even outside of it. Not to mention the standard is 30 day returns, more than double the legally mandated 14 for distance selling. I don't understand why you were even talking to support - if it was clearly defective within half an hour (much less than 30 days) you could have just created a return yourself without talking to anybody?
- madaxe_again 1y ago
  Because it’s Amazon Spain and I live in Portugal - they only do return labels etc. for a collection point 200km from where I live, otherwise, you have to ship stuff back at your own expense. No option to automatically open a return. It’s basically the Amazon uk returns process from 20 years ago.
  - microtonal 1y ago
    They should repair it under warranty, period. If they cannot make a return label, you can send it back. IIRC they are also responsible for the shipping cost, but they can refund it afterwards when they are not able to create a return label. I think your mistake might be that they are sticking to the letter of the law. Don't ask for your 14-day cool-off period, because strictly I think the product needs to be sealed (though many sellers are more lenient): https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/ https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/ Instead ask for a repair under warranty, which they are required to do as a seller. They cannot point you to the manufacturer, the seller is responsible for handling warranty for the first two years: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/product-guarantees-for-consumers.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/product-g...
microtonal 1y ago
I think their specific get out is that they’re Amazon Spain, IANAL, but I don't think it matters. Any webshop in the EU must sell to all EU customers and they should provide the same warranty, etc. to all EU customers as if you were buying it in the country they are selling from (Spain in this case). The EU is a single market. https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-rights/shopping-rights/guarantees-and-warranties https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-r... Amazon is violating EU consumer protection law here, but they probably do it because most customers will feel helpless and not sue them. If you do not want to sue them, the best thing is probably to file a complaint with the Portuguese consumer authority. It's really important to do this, because only when enough people do such a thing, a pattern can be established and they can warn or sue Amazon.

thaumasiotes 1y ago

> But this is Amazon - they don’t need to follow consumer protection laws No one needs to follow consumer protection laws if you don't sue to make them.

madaxe_again 1y ago
Yeah, I’m not spending hundreds of thousands of euro on legal fees to fight a trillion dollar company over a €300 piece of crud. That’s part of their calculus, too.
- b112 1y ago
  You don't have small claims court? Here in Canada, it's $150 to register, you fill out the form yourself, no lawyers are allowed, and you argue your case in front of a judge. (A company can have someone represent them, but if it's a lawyer, they must also have a rep. from the company there. and there can be no legalise, and the judge must explain anything to you if you ask) There is no forced discoverability. EG, the other side cannot ask for all sorts of documents. You just include your evidence in the filing. There is no ability for the company you sue, to compel costs if you lose. For $150 you get a lot of joy out of hassling a company behaving like this. And amusingly, they still consult lawyers, and spend on a lot on lawyers. They can't be used in court, but they of course as a company consult legal experts. I napkin mathed it, the one time I sued a company. I figured it cost them $25,000 to defend when I spent $150. If even a small percentage of people take them to task for breaking the law, they'll turn around quick. Always use your enemies strengths as a weakness against them. You should look at the process, but view if from the perspective of a hobby.
  - madaxe_again 1y ago
    They do, but it’s only available to Portuguese citizens - I am a legally resident alien, but am excluded from that system, as it requires a citizen card to start a claim.
    - blibble 1y ago
      so anyone can just rip you off for any contract and there's nothing you can do about it? doesn't seem likely
    - Tadpole9181 1y ago
      Julgados de Paz is available to non-citizens, what are you talking about? So is contacting the livro de réclamations and making a chargeback with your card provider. How strange to try to claim the legal system has no reconciliation process for tourists or EU passer-bys. You're allowed to say you just couldn't be bothered to go through the trouble.
      - madaxe_again 1y ago
        Go look at the website - you have to use authenticao.gov, which requires a digital mobile key, which requires a citizen card, which I cannot have unless I am a citizen. The offline process requires me to travel 200km each way to spend a day queuing. Amazon Spain are Spanish, and are not subject to the Portuguese livro de reclamações. As to making a chargeback - I like having a bank account, and being able to pay for things online - any time you do one you take a risk your bank will decide to throw freezes and KYC at you until you give up.
        b112 1y ago
        Saying "It's not available to not citizens" is wildly and massively different than "It's more work for non-citizens". It's literally a lie and dishonest. And given you've already said things that are not true, I'm highly skeptical that there are not other means to handle this. I bet there are ways to access authenticao.gov without being a citizen. I bet there are ways that you don't have to go 200km. You can probably send the forms by snail-mail, by post or courier. I bet you're just leaving things out again, or haven't researched properly, as you've shown this to be the case with prior comments. In terms of what Amazon is subject to, you can get a court judgement in one jurisdiction, and have it enforced in another. You're in the EU too, and I would be astonished to discover this isn't super-easy there. And legislation likely enhances cross-border cases like this. And if companies ship into another country, they can be blocked until recourse happens. Point is, you're just (again) saying "Oh well!" without really knowing. You're just saying that's the case, because you're presuming that's the case. You don't know. you just say it is so. Chargebacks are a part of online life. They are common. I've never, ever heard of a bank ever being hostile over them. The very premise is weird and absurd. It's just a part of banking, nothing unusual, nothing surprising, and a process we all have to go through from time to time.
- necovek 1y ago
  I would hope that consumer protection organizations can help you with that without having to engage lawyers: similarly, Amazon is not interested in long running legal battles if they see you are serious.
- Symbiote 1y ago
  Why not make a chargeback on the card you used to pay?

OJFord 1y ago

In my experience in the UK, Amazon is better than consumer protection laws, and miles better than other vendors. They won't question or require lots of information etc. to support things in however many years of warranty, or even outside of it. Not to mention the standard is 30 day returns, more than double the legally mandated 14 for distance selling. I don't understand why you were even talking to support - if it was clearly defective within half an hour (much less than 30 days) you could have just created a return yourself without talking to anybody?

madaxe_again 1y ago
Because it’s Amazon Spain and I live in Portugal - they only do return labels etc. for a collection point 200km from where I live, otherwise, you have to ship stuff back at your own expense. No option to automatically open a return. It’s basically the Amazon uk returns process from 20 years ago.
- microtonal 1y ago
  They should repair it under warranty, period. If they cannot make a return label, you can send it back. IIRC they are also responsible for the shipping cost, but they can refund it afterwards when they are not able to create a return label. I think your mistake might be that they are sticking to the letter of the law. Don't ask for your 14-day cool-off period, because strictly I think the product needs to be sealed (though many sellers are more lenient): https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/ https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/ Instead ask for a repair under warranty, which they are required to do as a seller. They cannot point you to the manufacturer, the seller is responsible for handling warranty for the first two years: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/product-guarantees-for-consumers.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/product-g...

microtonal 1y ago

I think their specific get out is that they’re Amazon Spain, IANAL, but I don't think it matters. Any webshop in the EU must sell to all EU customers and they should provide the same warranty, etc. to all EU customers as if you were buying it in the country they are selling from (Spain in this case). The EU is a single market. https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-rights/shopping-rights/guarantees-and-warranties https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-r... Amazon is violating EU consumer protection law here, but they probably do it because most customers will feel helpless and not sue them. If you do not want to sue them, the best thing is probably to file a complaint with the Portuguese consumer authority. It's really important to do this, because only when enough people do such a thing, a pattern can be established and they can warn or sue Amazon.