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Yeah - I think they’ve put a big focus on reducing returns over the last year. I bought a Quest 3 last year. One of the controllers totally packed in within hal

Yeah - I think they’ve put a big focus on reducing returns over the last year. I bought a Quest 3 last year. One of the controllers totally packed in within half an hour - thumb stick permanently locked to full. Wanted to do an RMA. Amazon told me to go hang, said I couldn’t return used goods, it would have to be unused in the box, and that I should contact meta. I contacted meta, who told me to go hang, as they don’t officially support Portugal, which is where Amazon Spain happily shipped it. So it’s just sat in a box gathering dust since, and I now avoid using Amazon whenever possible. I had already ditched meta so frankly I should have known that I was going to step on a rake.

monegator 1y ago
> Amazon told me to go hang, said I couldn’t return used goods I don't buy it. Don't we have actual consumer protection laws here in europe? We can return anything we bought online in 14 days time, full refund, no questions asked.
- madaxe_again 1y ago
  That’s the law, yeah - and if the goods are faulty it’s actually up to two years. But this is Amazon - they don’t need to follow consumer protection laws - I think their specific get out is that they’re Amazon Spain, and I’m having stuff shipped to Portugal, and Spanish consumer protection regs (which implement the EU regs) only protect consumers in Spain. That was meta’s get-out, too.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > But this is Amazon - they don’t need to follow consumer protection laws No one needs to follow consumer protection laws if you don't sue to make them.
    - madaxe_again 1y ago
      Yeah, I’m not spending hundreds of thousands of euro on legal fees to fight a trillion dollar company over a €300 piece of crud. That’s part of their calculus, too.
      - b112 1y ago
        You don't have small claims court? Here in Canada, it's $150 to register, you fill out the form yourself, no lawyers are allowed, and you argue your case in front of a judge. (A company can have someone represent them, but if it's a lawyer, they must also have a rep. from the company there. and there can be no legalise, and the judge must explain anything to you if you ask) There is no forced discoverability. EG, the other side cannot ask for all sorts of documents. You just include your evidence in the filing. There is no ability for the company you sue, to compel costs if you lose. For $150 you get a lot of joy out of hassling a company behaving like this. And amusingly, they still consult lawyers, and spend on a lot on lawyers. They can't be used in court, but they of course as a company consult legal experts. I napkin mathed it, the one time I sued a company. I figured it cost them $25,000 to defend when I spent $150. If even a small percentage of people take them to task for breaking the law, they'll turn around quick. Always use your enemies strengths as a weakness against them. You should look at the process, but view if from the perspective of a hobby.
        madaxe_again 1y ago
        They do, but it’s only available to Portuguese citizens - I am a legally resident alien, but am excluded from that system, as it requires a citizen card to start a claim.
        blibble 1y ago
        so anyone can just rip you off for any contract and there's nothing you can do about it? doesn't seem likely
        Tadpole9181 1y ago
        Julgados de Paz is available to non-citizens, what are you talking about? So is contacting the livro de réclamations and making a chargeback with your card provider. How strange to try to claim the legal system has no reconciliation process for tourists or EU passer-bys. You're allowed to say you just couldn't be bothered to go through the trouble.
  - OJFord 1y ago
    In my experience in the UK, Amazon is better than consumer protection laws, and miles better than other vendors. They won't question or require lots of information etc. to support things in however many years of warranty, or even outside of it. Not to mention the standard is 30 day returns, more than double the legally mandated 14 for distance selling. I don't understand why you were even talking to support - if it was clearly defective within half an hour (much less than 30 days) you could have just created a return yourself without talking to anybody?
    - madaxe_again 1y ago
      Because it’s Amazon Spain and I live in Portugal - they only do return labels etc. for a collection point 200km from where I live, otherwise, you have to ship stuff back at your own expense. No option to automatically open a return. It’s basically the Amazon uk returns process from 20 years ago.
      - microtonal 1y ago
        They should repair it under warranty, period. If they cannot make a return label, you can send it back. IIRC they are also responsible for the shipping cost, but they can refund it afterwards when they are not able to create a return label. I think your mistake might be that they are sticking to the letter of the law. Don't ask for your 14-day cool-off period, because strictly I think the product needs to be sealed (though many sellers are more lenient): https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/ https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/ Instead ask for a repair under warranty, which they are required to do as a seller. They cannot point you to the manufacturer, the seller is responsible for handling warranty for the first two years: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/product-guarantees-for-consumers.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/product-g...
  - microtonal 1y ago
    I think their specific get out is that they’re Amazon Spain, IANAL, but I don't think it matters. Any webshop in the EU must sell to all EU customers and they should provide the same warranty, etc. to all EU customers as if you were buying it in the country they are selling from (Spain in this case). The EU is a single market. https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-rights/shopping-rights/guarantees-and-warranties https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-r... Amazon is violating EU consumer protection law here, but they probably do it because most customers will feel helpless and not sue them. If you do not want to sue them, the best thing is probably to file a complaint with the Portuguese consumer authority. It's really important to do this, because only when enough people do such a thing, a pattern can be established and they can warn or sue Amazon.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

monegator 1y ago

> Amazon told me to go hang, said I couldn’t return used goods I don't buy it. Don't we have actual consumer protection laws here in europe? We can return anything we bought online in 14 days time, full refund, no questions asked.

madaxe_again 1y ago
That’s the law, yeah - and if the goods are faulty it’s actually up to two years. But this is Amazon - they don’t need to follow consumer protection laws - I think their specific get out is that they’re Amazon Spain, and I’m having stuff shipped to Portugal, and Spanish consumer protection regs (which implement the EU regs) only protect consumers in Spain. That was meta’s get-out, too.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > But this is Amazon - they don’t need to follow consumer protection laws No one needs to follow consumer protection laws if you don't sue to make them.
  - madaxe_again 1y ago
    Yeah, I’m not spending hundreds of thousands of euro on legal fees to fight a trillion dollar company over a €300 piece of crud. That’s part of their calculus, too.
    - b112 1y ago
      You don't have small claims court? Here in Canada, it's $150 to register, you fill out the form yourself, no lawyers are allowed, and you argue your case in front of a judge. (A company can have someone represent them, but if it's a lawyer, they must also have a rep. from the company there. and there can be no legalise, and the judge must explain anything to you if you ask) There is no forced discoverability. EG, the other side cannot ask for all sorts of documents. You just include your evidence in the filing. There is no ability for the company you sue, to compel costs if you lose. For $150 you get a lot of joy out of hassling a company behaving like this. And amusingly, they still consult lawyers, and spend on a lot on lawyers. They can't be used in court, but they of course as a company consult legal experts. I napkin mathed it, the one time I sued a company. I figured it cost them $25,000 to defend when I spent $150. If even a small percentage of people take them to task for breaking the law, they'll turn around quick. Always use your enemies strengths as a weakness against them. You should look at the process, but view if from the perspective of a hobby.
      - madaxe_again 1y ago
        They do, but it’s only available to Portuguese citizens - I am a legally resident alien, but am excluded from that system, as it requires a citizen card to start a claim.
        blibble 1y ago
        so anyone can just rip you off for any contract and there's nothing you can do about it? doesn't seem likely
        Tadpole9181 1y ago
        Julgados de Paz is available to non-citizens, what are you talking about? So is contacting the livro de réclamations and making a chargeback with your card provider. How strange to try to claim the legal system has no reconciliation process for tourists or EU passer-bys. You're allowed to say you just couldn't be bothered to go through the trouble.
- OJFord 1y ago
  In my experience in the UK, Amazon is better than consumer protection laws, and miles better than other vendors. They won't question or require lots of information etc. to support things in however many years of warranty, or even outside of it. Not to mention the standard is 30 day returns, more than double the legally mandated 14 for distance selling. I don't understand why you were even talking to support - if it was clearly defective within half an hour (much less than 30 days) you could have just created a return yourself without talking to anybody?
  - madaxe_again 1y ago
    Because it’s Amazon Spain and I live in Portugal - they only do return labels etc. for a collection point 200km from where I live, otherwise, you have to ship stuff back at your own expense. No option to automatically open a return. It’s basically the Amazon uk returns process from 20 years ago.
    - microtonal 1y ago
      They should repair it under warranty, period. If they cannot make a return label, you can send it back. IIRC they are also responsible for the shipping cost, but they can refund it afterwards when they are not able to create a return label. I think your mistake might be that they are sticking to the letter of the law. Don't ask for your 14-day cool-off period, because strictly I think the product needs to be sealed (though many sellers are more lenient): https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/ https://business.gov.nl/regulation/cancellation-period-sale/ Instead ask for a repair under warranty, which they are required to do as a seller. They cannot point you to the manufacturer, the seller is responsible for handling warranty for the first two years: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/product-guarantees-for-consumers.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/product-g...
- microtonal 1y ago
  I think their specific get out is that they’re Amazon Spain, IANAL, but I don't think it matters. Any webshop in the EU must sell to all EU customers and they should provide the same warranty, etc. to all EU customers as if you were buying it in the country they are selling from (Spain in this case). The EU is a single market. https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-rights/shopping-rights/guarantees-and-warranties https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-r... Amazon is violating EU consumer protection law here, but they probably do it because most customers will feel helpless and not sue them. If you do not want to sue them, the best thing is probably to file a complaint with the Portuguese consumer authority. It's really important to do this, because only when enough people do such a thing, a pattern can be established and they can warn or sue Amazon.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]