3 ms·

Timbre seems to be a pretty wide idea. If defined as “character” or “quality”, I would question the definition of “character” if it is anything other than “perc

Timbre seems to be a pretty wide idea. If defined as “character” or “quality”, I would question the definition of “character” if it is anything other than “perceived character”. In that case, we can say that timbre of a piano can definitely be controlled separately from volume—as in, one can play a note with the same volume (to some precision), but different timbre—if nothing else then because a piano note does not really exist standalone, and the perceived character of a sound from a given key will always depend on what keys were played before and after, how they were played, etc., adding innumerable complex interplays between all the factors involved, even possibly including the movement of the pianist. Describing this difference as an illusion may be meaningful in some contexts, I suppose, but they would be pretty narrow and it is not too different from classifying consciousness as illusion: perhaps it cannot be quantifiable in certain ways, yet in other (very concrete and important) ways it is more consequential than many things we can quantify. In other words, so if you compare A then B then C vs. Z then Y then C (where B and Y could even be the same note, just played differently), you can have “the same” C as measured in separation from the rest[0], but which crucially would nevertheless have a different character in listener’s mind—which may well be subjective, but also practically most relevant, and evidently reproducible. [0] If that is even possible, considering the tails of preceding notes would be audible.

smj-edison 1y ago
But if all you're worried about is subjective appear, why even worry about tracking key velocity? You might as well just have a bunch of people go to a piano concert.
- strogonoff 1y ago
  It could be possible that some research is not extremely useful while still making correct conclusions.
TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
It's trivial to set up an experiment where you kick a single key with a solenoid and record the result. You can apply different velocity curves to the solenoid and see if there's any variation in timbre. There probably will be. We're used to thinking of key velocity as a constant, but the escapement mechanism is quite complex and isn't truly instantaneous. There's almost certainly some room for dynamic velocity variation in touch as the key goes down. Likewise with short vs long notes. I suspect there's some unconscious variation in key release dynamics, which will have a subtle effect. What you're talking about is the more complex musical effect of many keys at once, with complex variations in timing (intentional and unintentional slurring of chords), dynamics (intentionally highlighting some chord notes over others), and all of the resonant interactions between open strings, dampers, and the frame. That would be much harder to analyse.
- strogonoff 1y ago
  > It's trivial to set up an experiment where you kick a single key with a solenoid and record the result. You can apply different velocity curves to the solenoid and see if there's any variation in timbre Absolutely. Most of my comment is arguing how it would be not really useful, though, because perceived timbre (a.k.a. the kind that matters) is by definition wholly subjective, influenced by surrounding notes, etc.

smj-edison 1y ago

But if all you're worried about is subjective appear, why even worry about tracking key velocity? You might as well just have a bunch of people go to a piano concert.

strogonoff 1y ago
It could be possible that some research is not extremely useful while still making correct conclusions.

TheOtherHobbes 1y ago

It's trivial to set up an experiment where you kick a single key with a solenoid and record the result. You can apply different velocity curves to the solenoid and see if there's any variation in timbre. There probably will be. We're used to thinking of key velocity as a constant, but the escapement mechanism is quite complex and isn't truly instantaneous. There's almost certainly some room for dynamic velocity variation in touch as the key goes down. Likewise with short vs long notes. I suspect there's some unconscious variation in key release dynamics, which will have a subtle effect. What you're talking about is the more complex musical effect of many keys at once, with complex variations in timing (intentional and unintentional slurring of chords), dynamics (intentionally highlighting some chord notes over others), and all of the resonant interactions between open strings, dampers, and the frame. That would be much harder to analyse.

strogonoff 1y ago
> It's trivial to set up an experiment where you kick a single key with a solenoid and record the result. You can apply different velocity curves to the solenoid and see if there's any variation in timbre Absolutely. Most of my comment is arguing how it would be not really useful, though, because perceived timbre (a.k.a. the kind that matters) is by definition wholly subjective, influenced by surrounding notes, etc.